The First U.S. Bred Gosanke GC?

[Koi Story]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 koi story you forgot matsunosuke in your list of kohaku breeders also, who knows who got which parents from dianichi?

Matsunosuke is a Taisho Sanshoku line, not Kohaku. Matsunosuke is not a breeder.

[Koi Story]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM I think this thread is becoming a bit confused regarding Torazo. The Kawakami family's koi farm is known by the name: Torazo. It means "tiger". There was a line of Sanke known by the name Torazo, which was connected with the Jimbei line. Today, Sanke continue to be bred, but Torazo (the koi farm) produces more Kohaku than any other variety. There are numerous breeding pairs/trios. I do not recall the exact number, but it is something like 8 or 10. The Oyagoi are from several different old bloodlines ... a mixture of Manzo, Sensuke, Dainichi and others. Despite the variety of parentage, Torazo's Kohaku do have a certain look to them. The Hi is a soft orange-red and the fish can put on great volume. Perhaps it is the breeder's eye as much as genetics? In the last couple of years the Kohaku produced by Torazo have been taking on a different look. I suspect introduction of new Oyagoi....perhaps to gain greater length??? Torazo will always be known for its place in koi history as the farm that produced great Sanke (for that day) long ago, but it is known now for it's Kohaku. ...The earthquakes last October caused quite a bit of damage, but I've heard the Kawakami family continues to breed and will be harvesting this Fall.

The Torazo Sanshoku comes from the Urakawa Fish Farm (Ojiya). Its developer was Torakichi (Female Sanshoku X male Yagozen Kohaku) and named after his father Torazo. Torakichi’s son Hiroshi Kawakami is the recent owner of the farm. Torazo Sanshoku was produced around 1950. The characteristics of the Torazo Sanshoku are fine Hi and solid rather small sumi markings that are stable.

The above can be found in page 46 of Modern Nishikigoi (1991) by Dr. Takeo Kuroki.

MikeM, Do you have a reference, quote, picture, or link for “Torazo’s Kohaku”? TIA

[Doug Ward]

Why dont you ask Ray Abell since he spends time at Torazo twice a year, for many, many, years.

Be very cautious with(dis) information written in books... especially if it's out of suburban, Hotlanta, Ga. and advertizzed on nearly 400 websites

[MikeM]

KoiStory: Torazo Kohaku are carried by dealers all around the world. One of the sponsors of this site, Genki Koi, has a very nice Torazo Kohaku gracing the sale pages of its website right now ... unless it was sold very recently! (Wish I had the self-confidence to purchase koi of that quality!!) If you receive koi from the Urakawa Fish Farm, you will see the boxes are marked: "Torazo", without regard to the variety of koi being shipped. It is their brand name for all koi produced by their farm. They know the Torazo name is well-known, so it is used. Their practice may have been different 15 years ago when Dr. Kuroki was writing his book. Today, people refer to "Torazo" and may mean the original Sanke, the farm, koi produced by the farm or Kawakami-san.

Jungle states that there are several breeders producing Torazo Sanke today. It may be a matter of definition. There are interesting articles on the original Torazo Sanke "bloodline" in old Japanese koi magazines written 15-25 years ago. There may be breeders producing Sanke whose parent fish are Sanke produced from the original, but the "true Torazo Sanke" died with the oyagoi from which it came. The Sanke produced by Urakawa Fish Farm today may be Torazo Sanke in the sense that they are that farm's brand, but they are not the same Sanke as the original ones made famous under the "Tiger Tricolor" name. Two decades ago, koi kichi seeking to repeat the patterning of the original found that they had to look to Jimbei for similar sumi markings, but they just were not the same. Of course, the quality of that period was very poor compared to the quality of today. I expect few koi kichi today would particularly care to take up space with Sanke of the quality of the original Torazo Sanke. In nishikigoi, looking back is wonderful nostalgia, but the best is today ... and it will be better tomorrow. The best Sanke has not been hatched. (Maybe by then I'll have the self-confidence to acquire it???? LOL )

[keokoi]

MikeM, Torazo Kohak has sold and that Pic I took of her on his webpage does nto justice to what it looks like today. Kev Conditioned her well this summer and her girth and skin quality had me reaching for my wallet. That Sashi has cleaned up really well. Hopefully we will see her at a show in the future. By the way that Torazo Kohaku on Genki webpage also is in koi2Kichi DVD when PW was at Torazo green house.

Joe

[MikeM]

Yep. Sold. ... Joe, it's not that I did not believe you. I just had to see those red letters for myself. I believe that was the best looking Kohaku listed by a U.S. dealer on a website. Fortunately in another month we will have harvest photos to see and a new crop of koi to dream of owning.

[Koi Story]

MikeM, thank you for your posts; carefully reading of your first one should have sufficed to stop my dumb questions. Your second post is very clear and very much appreciated.

Please forgive these and future similar questions as trying to write an idea and posting is a thrilling and more intensive way to learn. Even raw craw can be tasty.

Thanks again,



ks

[Koi Story]

Quote: Originally Posted by Doug Ward Why dont you ask Ray Abell since he spends time at Torazo twice a year, for many, many, years. Be very cautious with(dis) information written in books... especially if it's out of suburban, Hotlanta, Ga. and advertizzed on nearly 400 websites

The information in T. Kuroki’s book is accurate. Anything that could be qualified as disinformation is my fault. The 1st edition of the book is dated 1986, so it doesn’t mention Hiroshi’s son Tsuyoshi, as the actual manager. The name of the farm is Urakawa Fish Farm. The Torazo Sanshoku line a “Distinguished Taisho Sanshoku Lineage” was named after Hiroshi Kawakami’s great grandfather, Torazo.



Thanks for the links. Some splendid koi BTW, probably some on E-bay excepted.



ks

[MikeM]

KoiStory: Please do not apologize. There is nothing for which you should apologize. I fear the tone of my posts may have come across as criticizing you. If so, it is I who owe you an apology. The Torazo story is one of the great tales of koi history. I thank you for bringing it to mind. I hope you will point out other items of information from Dr. Kuroki's writings and from other materials you read. I think it enriches our appreciation of nishikigoi. And, it is always useful to be reminded of the points Dr. Kuroki made in his books. Times may change, but the wisdom of his experience is enduring.

[junglegeorge12]

the article I read was alot more recent than that Mike, and put a twist on it I hadn't seen before. Someone did some real digging to trace bloodlines and just characteristics etc etc, I will try to find it again for you, as I do not remember all the exact details. The article also talked some about Jimbei in detail if I recall (I may be mixing two articles in my mind). If I find it again I will post it. Might take me a while but I think it's got some things in it that may interest you. I ran into it while doing some research on the magoi bloodline intro and who was doing what- who had whose daddie and whose mommie they were with etc etc, and actually found the article on this subject to be more informative, and in my view, more important to the future development of the gosanke. It also shed alot of light for me on why everyone did not just copy Matsunosuke or Momotaro. Who has the authentic bloodlines for the males and females from the old dianichi dynasty? Anyone know? I would be interested to find out if that is playing a role in Momotaro's success at all.

It will be very interesting to see where things sit in 20 years. I think every major breeder has a plan they are working on for either size, a unique characteristic that stands out as highly impressive and desirable, or a new line altogether. Those kinds of goals are very important for koi development, and also affect all decisions as to which parents to pursue and what qualities to look for in them.

Jimbei is working an interesting strategy, I think he is being highly underestimated at the moment. Time will tell. I guess there is a certain amount of risk any time you decide to dedicate yourself or a farm to one strategy and long term future goal. What I like, is that not everyone ran out and started buying gosanke with magoi blood or crossbreeding magoi. Some did, but with a certain amount of moderation with a multitude of goals in mind. Others are taking an entirely different tactic, and you know they could run out and copy the guys who are on top right now if they wanted to. I think that earns them a certain spot in the koi world and 'respect' points.

Momotaro and a few others have clearly taken things to a new level as Dianichi did a while back. I think one of the greatest threads of our lives might be in 20 years when we look back and see what happened with each line and each strategy. Things are definitely going to new level right now, and over the last 40 years there has been so much shifting around in terms of what is highly valued, I think we will see some amazing things in the next 5-10 years in terms of very acute and precise development.

In the future, when I am ready, I want to write an in depth article on what I discovered about koi coloration and skin qualities that I found out dealing with the sun down here. I think more and more we are going to see a shift away from just dna good food and good water, to certain dna characterisitcs plus a combo of other things to produce certain colors, shades, and types of development. I think that will really intensify the competition and preparation process for shows. I need a few more years to be able to prove my points for sure, and to be able to help others battling with color loss or certain pattern and scale problems, and potentially even help reduce flukes, parasites or other harmful organisms. I have an interesting experiment running myself, based on the mineral content and other characteristics of the natural water in Japan and in other places where koi and other fish have been found with certain characteristics and color tendancies. I will be able to tell you more in about six to nine months.