Which koi is the Marudo kohaku

[Bob Winkler]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 Hard beni or soft beni?

This koi is not really my concept of hard beni, as much as possibly weak beni? It is so hard in pictures....Is it really like it shows? Looking back on Koi #1, the beni looks very similar on my screen.....My concept of high quality, soft beni, is very much based on JR's and Sakai's lessons, some of which I posted.

There were some lessons at the AKCA judging seminars, and at this years koi america, where the placement of the darker areas in the beni made a difference whether it was weak beni, or very high quality beni. Can't say I completely bought into it at the time, but at least I am looking for it now, whereas b4, I would likely have called this beni weak.

The more we learn, the more we realize there is to learn....

[l113892]

What I see in this picture is that each scale has a round orange center, with a furukin type edge that is yellow/orange. What do you see in this koi that would suggest that the beni is weak? When I hear people talk about soft and hard beni, they seem to associate soft beni with orange hi and hard beni with purple based hi. I have to believe this term is being misapplied here. I have also seen beni that is thick, I mean so thick that you cannot discern the outline of the scales. Does that fall in the realm of hard and soft?

[l113892]

Hard beni, soft beni?

[l113892]

In these examples, the furukin type skin is darker than the center section of the scale. So, maybe three types, maybe unrelated to soft and hard beni. Type I - lighter perimeter of scale Type II- uniform color across the scale and Type III- darker perimeter of scale. I would think that there is a tendency for the beni color to go in one direction on types I and III. Either the scale is going toward the center color or the scale is going toward the perimeter color.

[Doug Ward]

Mike, naturally the fukarin will often be deeper on a " close to mature" kohaku.
Fukarin is skin, like the headset, and will develop a " tint" before the rest matures.
Even ogon... look at the fukarin ( developing) to determine the final tint of the fish.
Yamabuki are classic examples.. The fukarin and head will be lemon!ish but the center of the scale may be orangy... or vice/versa.
The fukarin lets you know what to expect at maturity.

Sakai ( Yammamatsu/Matsunosuke/Toshuki.. pick your flavor) has certain lines that look like tomatoes as tosai and mature with that so called " persimmon" hi/beni.
You can(sometimes) see it at 1 1/2 years or so.
Often the females are " persimmony and males " tomato ?ee" until sexable, and that can warp things a bit.
Thick/Thin, Hard/Soft.
To me, FLEXABLE is more important.
This keeps pattern in relation to growth, irregardless of " tint"
Bend that koi !
JR.. It's time for b'nannerGoi....

[MikeM]

This is a very informative thread, MikeP. Even your questions educate.

I think there are more types of Hi than we like to talk about. With Sumi, we deal with the degree of concentration of pigment. Hi, however, seems to truly be a question of layers of pigment in the different layers of skin, as well as concentration of pigment. And, there are different pigments that appear "red". The different layers of skin may not have the same sort of pigment.... in some genetic lines there is a relatively durable base orange pigment which is overlaid in the outer skin layer by a bright purplish red pigment. When the purplish pigment fades, the under color remains as an unattractive orange. Very beautiful when both are in place, but putrid after the surficial Hi fades.

The Hi with the dark roundish center is, I believe, a characteristic of Yagozen-type Hi. (Sorry, have to hit the road early this morning & no time to go check notes on that.) It developes differently than Sensuke-type, etc. I do not believe that difference is necessarily related to future fading, but relates to different development of molecule structures within the skin layers holding the pigment.

People can learn to identify the Hi type(s) they prefer, but I do not believe the complexity of Hi is well understood at all. Soft/hard, orange-based/purple-based, are nice shorthand terms, but inherently simplistic. Of course, if it was easy, the breeders would have eliminated everything but the "best Hi" over the past 100 years. Both of the Sakai farms still produce Shiro Muji, despite the high degree of genetic refinement and most experienced eyes in koidom. ..... I keep waiting to find something authoritative on Hi, but I've not found it yet.

Please keep asking these questions. I know there are lurkers who could add to our knowledge if they would just speak up.

[keokoi]

MikeP, your Kohaku #1 is so clean on the shiroji. What did the beni look like when it was starting to bridge the gap..? Secondary? Doesn't look like it to me cause the Kohak is so clean..

if you answered this sorry I havent read all of the thread..

Joe

[l113892]

Doug-


So, you suggest that the tone of the beni on the furukin suggests the ultimate beni tone one would expect at maturity. Given the pictures I posted, one of the orange based kohaku had lighter orange surrounding the scale than in the center. That fish should go even lighter orange. Then the example with the darker beni surrounding the scale, the beni should go darker. I will have to test this with a few fish to confirm.

There is also the beni that has the dark slash across the center of the scale. I understand that is not a good thing. What exactly is happening when you see the slash?

[l113892]

Joe-

Kohaku #1, when purchased had a clear break between the first and second steps. Then, over a years time, the sashi on the second step blurred the area between the steps. During this time, that area was a focal point and it was distracting. The picture I am showing was taken in 2004. Now, there is no longer a window in the area of discussion. It is no longer distracting at all.

[keokoi]

Thanks Mike! Really helps you realize how long these koi have to go to Mature into what we see in MAgazine pics and such.

Who said Kohaku was easy to pick..

Good keeping skills as well to have it come in so clean. Doing it right.. Bravo


Joe