Could forums hurt or help the learning curve?

[PapaBear]

As an "accidental" koikeeper I can attest to the helpful nature of the web. We started out with a pond designed for Goldfish,(which my wife had kept before) and wound up with Koi instead because of a friend getting rid of his overstock. Shallow Goldfish ponds are woefully inadequate for good Koikeeping so I went to the web to get a crash course of information in order to make the right changes as quickly as possible. I can't imagine how many koi would have been sacrificed to my ignorance without the resources the web has to offer.
On the flip side, one does have to exercise discretion. If I can't confirm advise and information from multiple sources I discount its value immediately. There are some well intended people out there who just don't know what they are talking about and the multitude of opinions and experiences available on forums like this one make it possible to sift through the nonsense and make informed decisions.

[koifishgirl]

Heck, I just think that all home builders should build a koi pond in every home that they build. Inside or out Then we will have more members and more people to go to shows


Judy

[elunned]

What some many folks here overlook is that the average hobbyist who winds up keeping koi doesn't participate in the boards, belong to a club, or do any research on the needs of fish before building their first pond. They get their info from the local pond store or outdated books on watergardening. This has always made the learning curve steep and painful (for the koi).

The best koi forums tend to be a bit harsh on such accidental koi keepers. Newbies can get the impression that serious koi keepers are zealots with little patience for those who don't follow the one true way. (Local pond stores can promote that stereotype.) So they retreat to friendlier zones which give them more palatable advice - though not necessarily good advice. That intimidation can and does prolong the learning curve. Fortunately, there are koi keepers who have made a commitment to visiting those sites and gently laying the foundations for better koi care.

We can all agree that for koi keepers who have progressed beyond the bandaid mentality, forums are invaluable. However, they are still no substitute for time spent with koi - either diagnosing and treating or observing and critiquing in person.

[bekko]

Looking at the countless mellennia of human evolution, its a wonder that we could have been the lucky few chosen to live in this age. Despite depleted oil reserves, global warming, terrorism, gangster rap, the threat of avian flu and all the rest, this is a great time to be alive.

To my way of thinking, the world changed dramatically when Luke Frisbee and Al Gore invented the internet. Not even the invention of the printing press created such a rapid and radical improvement in information exchange. Have koi books and koi clubs become obsolete? I don't know. I belong to a club and still buy books. You can always find a new tid-bit tucked away in a book or the experience of a fellow club member. But the amount of koi information available on the internet is gigantic and growing, while the effort and expense required to have that information fed to you is ridiculously small.

-stevehopkin s

[Bancherd]

Yes, internet is great; abundance with information and misinformation.

One person was posting hydrodynamics equations/graphs on a local site which I frequent. Unfortunately he forgot about the underlying assumptions for which those equations were made and blindly tried to apply the equations to the situations in koi-ponds. I pointed out to him(and others) that the information was incorrect.

Guess who looked bad?

Me

[James P]

Or put another way—

What form of ‘communication’ is best? Since communication is a way to check out personal experience/observations. Some forms involve REALITY! Hands on experience. This is usually best I think but then again, in a vacuum of personal experience without outside feedback, or in the case of limited experience- maybe the club experience is better? Or at least the next level of ‘exposure’ to the hobby for the determined? You could even say that the club atmosphere protects the newbie from themselves! Their impulses and judgement may seem logical based on their limited experience but often is exactly the wrong thing to do- case in point- over medicating.

I did pick up on a statement that Elunned made- about many koi keepers are really isolated and are basically water garden center customers. That of course, is VERY true. But 99% of those people will pass through our hobby in an 18 month to 36 month time period. So we can hardly gauge the purpose, direction, educational level or health of the hobby by their experience. I prefer to think of those consumers as people who keep koi for a while- usually juvenile koi, until they die, but maybe not actual - koi keepers ( a more determined and focused ‘breed’, I think!)

So we move on to the Internet as a form of communication/education– convenient and plentiful! But unfortunately often wrong! Says who? Says me, and most koi keepers who have been around the block a few times. Check it out– if you repeat something enough times on the internet it becomes ‘true’! EVERYDAY, I read something on one of the three boards I visit that definitely isn’t true. Some times it is an innocent just repeating something they heard on a water gardening board or some other off-the-beaten-path source. And often it is a misinterpretation of a truth read on another board and it gets mangled in transposition/transfer. And just as often, it is an opinion stated as fact- something I have to admit, I’ve been guilty of from time to time, in the heat of battle. So for me, the internet is a fun distraction from real life and often quite interesting, but far too inaccurate to risk your koi’s live’s on.

As far as koi appreciation goes, almost every thing in writing loses its nuance - and most koi appreciation is three dimensional in that it involves hands on exposure, perspective and subtleties. Very few ‘written words’ can compensate.



And finally my pet peeve on these boards is when the over night expert discusses ‘ how things are in Japan’ when you suddenly realize that they actually have never! This is a common ‘disease’ of dealers and wanta be experts. Its an amazing phenomena to read the written word presented with such authority by a person who is simply repeating what their dealer or a BB said about Japan or a Japanese breeder!! At that moment, the self hypnosis is so strong that I personally believe the writer actually believes ‘ they have been there and seen these things they write about’. Scary.

Funny story– a well known ‘ professional’ wrote reams about Japanese transport facilities and how koi are often mishandled. I read these things with astonishment as they didn’t jive with my observations of the last 14 years of visiting Japan, but did not respond as I would only make myself look bad by correcting a much loved public figure in our hobby. Some months later, I found myself sitting with this guy at a social event. He leaned over and asked me " hey, you’re a guy goes to Japan, is it true that these fish are gathered from all over Japan and put in small concrete holding tanks?" I realized the man did not have a clue and was likely thinking that the Japanese system was the same as the tropical fish shipping systems of Thailand and Hong Kong??? I explained how they were very different. He thanked me for the input but never corrected any of the information he had already put in print. How many ‘readers’ of the Internet think they have a picture of real Japan after reading the fiction that man put in print? Many I would guess. Many who have talked to many others and ‘lectured’ on the bb’s to others as to ‘how it is’. Disgraceful.

So what is the answer? I think I have it!? Decide what kind of koi keeper you really are. Based on how important your fish and your hobby are to you, you can decide how much you really want to know. If you are a ‘storm trooper’ type and want it all, like me and my friends do, you need ALL forms of education- personal experience, a club affiliation, a few mentors, a good experienced teacher, A great relationship with an established dealer, books, magazines and the Internet. If you are a casual koi keeper and like water gardening in general, this is all way too intense and you should simply rely on a local dealer for all your information- at least it will be consistent. As for the internet, at that level, take full advantage of the social side of the hobby and share pictures, landscaping and the cute things koi do. And as someone already said- get confirmation on all serious data such as medication levels.

[Bill D]

There is not a day that goes by where a potential new hobbyist doesn't come to me and ask;

"I've been doing some research on the internet, and am very confused. Should I put rocks on the bottom of my koi pond or not?"

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bill D "I've been doing some research on the internet, and am very confused. Should I put rocks on the bottom of my koi pond or not?"

Seminal question, the answer to which clearly demarcates a bright line between JR's two tiered classification:

If YES = remain a casual koi keeper who likes water gardening
If NO = take babysteps towards Stormtrooper status

[Doug Ward]

The beauty of forums is that you gat MANY differing opinions... as opposed to a " bookie", or opinionated ragazzzine, where certain people worship a single "thought", or marketing ploy ...
You just need to sort it all out.. yourself.

[junglegeorge12]

I have read books and magazines by well trusted folks that had conflicting information as well, and have even seen the same authors disagree with themsleves inside of a year. I think part of what people say is situational, they try to have the right impact, and often if taken verbatim or out of context it can appear ambiguous or confusing. I do not think the internet makes that problem worse or better, just faster, which is actually good. Saves koi lives in the long run. You might get bad info, but you will probably get better info real fast. Whne it was all books and dealers and mags, it might take years to get one little piece of info to resolve the misinformation.

That is one of things happening regularly with Doc's(Johnson) stuff, he responds to a situation or trend going on, and later his responses would be different because things have changed and other factors are involved, but folks try to make blanket applications of everything. Advice for how to care of a sick koi, is not applicable to koi that are simply being shipped. I think the internet has stimulated a much higher level of good info out there, as well as giving place to differing opininons and being able to ask others. Years ago if it was in a book or mag in your local dealer, you pretty much did not have a way to check it out, it was the 'best' source you had. Now the forums can serve as places for folks to ask.

The forums have also taken on the social, and community roles in folks lives, and that is good. It is a real human need and fun to communicate with others. The down side is folks new to the hobby think they can figure it all out in two months. The other down side is often the social aspect takes more priority than info, or learning, and cliques form. I am not saying that is bad, it is part of social and community life everywhere. It can just tend to make 'gangs' and infighting 'groups' if we dont respect one another's right to be different. You cannot expect a punk rocker to enjoy country music, or a cowboy to enjoy punk rock. But they don't have to kill each other to be different.

Then we also have the occasional nutty guy who wants to shoot those who join the western world. I think it is very fun and all entertaining, but there are also real situations out there and you never know how serious to take someone. I mean, is it just a pissed off guy who thinks he is poor due to other folks (the blame game is easier than doing something constructive yourself), or is it a radical, brainwashed terrorist waiting for a place to strike?

I think alot of americans do nto realize how hostile some people really are, and how nutballed their thinking has gotten over th years from the influence of other nutballs. So how do we know who is who on here?