Dragon Pump Testing Results

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by showathemoney No sorry to dissapoint you Luke... I am Elliott Dilbeck of W. Lim Corporation.

OK now you added the "of".
I just thought perhaps "W" went by his middle name cuz he got tired of being teased when using the "Elliot" name.
If "W" hired you and you are of this cloth, then he did a wise thing....
Now YOU go convince him todesign a propeller pump like the FOK 1500 but of the same Quality he usually makes.......please.
Luke A. Frisbee

[junglegeorge12]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike T Stan: Ahhhhh! the personal attack mode... no problem...I think JG and I would have more fun shredding some waves during a south swell (Getting too old for the North Shore)... Oh yeah! and if we have time, we'll send a pic to William... Aloha! Mike

I would love to shred with you any time Mike, I hope you know I am not mad at all at you or anyone else in this. I just watched both threads for a while and felt a very unbalanced and unfair picture of things was being painted to Lim's detriment, so pointed out the obvious to anyone who works professionally in the industry. I think Valarc said the same thing just in fewer words. A retailer should never be making his actions to take care of his customer dependent on a manufacturer. If he does then his own customer service is lousy.

To answer your question Steve- and what then? I have seen several things done at that point done. The easiest is to put a cap on the outlet side, and a cap on the suction side, put some positive pressure on it (a nitrogen tank works for that) and see where the water squirts out. The problem with vacuum testing is finding the leak. It tells you there is one, but where is entirely another matter. If no leak does appear you still have a wet end problem or a broken shaft, both of which mean pump replacement.

As for the dueling thing, sounds like fun stan, but only people with defective hearts and warped minds like nazis think there is a gene pool problem that needs cleaning.

Also, thanks to elliot for coming on here to apologize for the customer's inconvenience, and telling us more about their company and it's learning curve. All it takes is a tired operator or failing equipment to make the deformity occur, or even a bad batch of plastic mix and materials supplied to Waterway.

So let's all be nice now, enjoy our koi tonite, and shred waves all weekend ok?

[schildkoi]

My question:

Quote: I mentioned other possibilities for the leakage other than a visible defect. Suppose the defect wasn't visible and the vacumm test was performed? Then what? What "if" the seals held vacuum to the design specifications? Careful, tricky part there.

Your answer to my question:

Quote: To answer your question Steve- and what then? I have seen several things done at that point done. The easiest is to put a cap on the outlet side, and a cap on the suction side, put some positive pressure on it (a nitrogen tank works for that) and see where the water squirts out. The problem with vacuum testing is finding the leak. It tells you there is one, but where is entirely another matter. If no leak does appear you still have a wet end problem or a broken shaft, both of which mean pump replacement.

Your absolutely correct, vaccuum testing can verify a leak but is hard to pinpoint where. But, that wasn't the question Besides, leaf baskets are desgned for negative pressure sealing. positive pressure leakage may or may not verify a leak at the point either for a negative pressure leak

What I was alluding to though above was what else could cause a negative pressure leak besides a faulty housing? Here's the tricky part. If the negatve pressure is beyond the design of the seal. Too big of a motor, variance in impellar design creating more suction, combination of both. Even a power surge could possibly give more rpms on the motor creating higher suction pressures.

I just thought I'd throw that question/scenerio out as a learning lesson. Thanks for "playing" JG.

Steve

[kent wallace]

The bottom line to all of this is that Tom should have replaced the pump immediately and then dealt with William later keeping the customer out of the loop. I have distributorships with several manufacturers and have dealt with many warranty issues over time and to date have never handed the customer the manufacturers phone number and had them deal with it.

Yes as a dealer it's expensive at times but my reputation is buiilt on making people happy and my suppliers do their best to make me happy. I've had similar problems with other waterway housings on other products and dealt with it.

This problem is more about the relationship between supplier and installer than anything else. Tom, sorry to say this but the customer should be mad at you and you in turn can be mad at William if you wish but the customer should not be mad at William.
Recently I had $12.000 of equipment shipped to a customer. Upon installation he said one of the two identical pumps made more noise than the other. I sent him another one and I will decdide if the customer had a valid complaint or not on my own. What I didn't do is piss my customer off.
I recently installed three Savio uv units in a row on a pond at my expense. Each failed within two weeks. I didn't tell the customer to call the manufacturer. I take care of my customer, The Savio people take care of me.

[SCVkoiboy]

I think the sequence of events have been distorted by those here with specific agendas. So let me just clarify them so everyone can decide what happened more clearly.

1. Customer bought pump from dealer Pump had a MANUFACTERER'S warranty.
2. Customer discovered pump sucked in air and reported such to dealer.
3. Dealer contacted manufacturer and manufacturer asked that the pump be brought to him for inspection before he would honor the warranty (even though the manufacturer knew the pumps have had a history of similar problems as was actually explained to the customer by the manufacturer at a koi show).
4. Dealer offered to take pump for customer to the manufacturer, but customer said he preferred to take it himself.
5. Customer took pump to manufacturer who tested the pump and told customer there was nothing wrong with the pump and that the problem must be in the installation. The test used by the manufacturer was insufficient to identify if the pump leaked (as later discovered through Steve's involvement). Manufacturer sold customer some parts which the manufacturer believed would rectify the problem (new gasket and union). Didn't work and problem continued.
6. Dealer gave customer a second pump to test on installation. Second pump worked fine. No apparent problem with installation.
7. Dealer took pump to manufacturer who tested it again and again said there was nothing wrong with pump and refused to honor warranty. Using the same faulty test and after having been explained in detail the installation set-up system a second time.
8. Since problem continued, customer decided to buy another brand pump (Performance Pro) and installed it on system. It worked great. No problems. Customer located exact place where leak was occuring on the Dragon pump and created video of leakage.
9. Dealer contacted manufacturer again but manufacturer refused to honor the MANUFACTURER'S warrantee still claiming there was no problem with the pump.
10. Dealer posted video on forum to see if there was a legitimate reason for the leakage or if other's believed the pump was defective as he and the customer believed.
11. William supporters became outraged while others posted similar problems with Dragon pumps and similar experiences dealing with William.
12. Through a third party (Steve), William agreed to give the customer a new pump if the customer would send the pump to Steve for testing.
13. Steve received the pump and did not need to test it because he saw the same problem as the customer and said the pump definitely leaked at the spot the customer had identified. Customer (after several years) now has two pumps and both are working great. William is satified because his friend, Steve, has told him the pump leaked.

The rest is just bantering back and forth by the parties involved (including myself). I personally think everything was done that could be done by the dealer and the customer, but some of you may have a different opinion. That's fine. I just wanted to make sure you had the facts before coming to your conclusions.

[Valarc]

Quote: Originally Posted by SCVkoiboy I think the sequence of events have been distorted by those here with specific agendas. So let me just clarify them so everyone can decide what happened more clearly. 1. Customer bought pump from dealer Pump had a MANUFACTERER'S warranty. 2. Customer discovered pump sucked in air and reported such to dealer. 3. Dealer contacted manufacturer and manufacturer asked that the pump be brought to him for inspection before he would honor the warranty (even though the manufacturer knew the pumps have had a history of similar problems as was actually explained to the customer by the manufacturer at a koi show).

Right here is where the dealer went wrong. Manufacturer's warranty or not, it's the dealer's responsibility to replace it. Back to wal-mart, if I buy a tv at wal-mart and it doesn't work, I return it to wal-mart. I should never, nor do i ever, wait for the manufacturer to do anything. It is the DEALER'S responsibility to replace the item, immediately. Then the dealer can live up to his title, and deal with the manufacturer on his own time without the customer ever knowing or caring. You sit here and blast everyone possible, except the one person who REALLY failed in his duties - Tom.

[SCVkoiboy]

I am not a businessman so I don't know how things are from the business standpoint. Only the consumer standpoint. I have seen it handled both ways where the consumer deals with the manufacturer directly or through the dealer in handling manufacturer warrantees. Many stores make you deal with the manufacturer directly for any manufacturer warrantee issues. In any case, I appreciate everything Tom C did for me or attempted to do for me in getting the manufacturer warrantee honored. I think he went out of his way to resolve my problem. I also want to thank Elliot for his post. It is late (but that's not his fault), but I appreciate what he wrote and how he wrote it. William should be honored to have an employee who can clean up his mistakes. Thanks for the comments, Elliot. I consider my problem resolved and appreciate the help everyone gave me and I hope others will read these posts and learn from them.

[junglegeorge12]

I actually agree with valarc, miracles never cease.

SCV-my family and I have sold millions of dollars of equipment and motors, pumps, and parts over the years. One of the reasons is we make sure our customers are treated the way we want to be treated, professionally and respectfully. I too have had folks who wanted to go with me to see a supplier. I told them no, because it is unprofessional and causes undue stress and confusion for the supplier and the customer. I would bet one of the reasons Lim did not understand the install was just that. Too many voices at one time. Often things are said and done in front of a customer in that type of situation they have no way of accurately understanding, and many problems result from it. It was inappropriate and unprofessional of him to do it that way.

He should have done as val said, given you an identical working pump immediately, then sorted it out with Lim on his own time while your pond life went on happily, which is what you paid him for. Instead, you had to BUY a second pump, and hassle around personally with Lim.

Instead you should have been telling your dealer you do not care what Lim does or says, you paid HIM for a working pump, so cough one up now. Not, can I have a loaner as a 'favor' until someone else does such and such? And ,"Oh thank you so much for the loaner." But, "I paid you already, so give me a new working pump NOW!!!" Don't you see your dealer let you down bro? Kent is another example of how professionals handle it. That was why I stated the real problem was the unprofessional way the dealer handled it.



All equipment warranties are through manufacturers, and your dealer is using that wording with you to again dodge his responsibility in the deal, and is going against how the whole industry works! If someone installs an AC unit in your house and it spits out water in your house, how long should you wait for a properly working one after paying? Should you go to the factory, and should it matter if the manufacturer honors the warranty? Of course not, that is the dealers responsibility to you. It is why he makes more money in the deal than Lim does.



Your dealer conveniently passed the buck off of himself by allowing you to engage with the manufacturer at all, and gave you the misperception that in this industry it was ultimately the manufacturers responsibility to take care of you, when it was his. Simple.

[SCVkoiboy]

Valarc,


Wal-mart and Target and other mega-stores have multi-million dollar losses built into their business model, including taking losses by accepting products being returned (a good policy for customer service no doubt). But most small businesses do not honor manufacturer warrantees because they do not have that luxury. Try taking a camera back a year and a half later to your local mom and pop camera store and tell them you want them to take care of the manufacturer's warrantee. Not going to happen. Ever buy a used car at a used car lot? If you had a manufacturer recall on a part, you cannot take it back to the used car salesman and ask him to fix the car. You have to go to a manufacturer representative (e.g., Ford dealership) to get the part fixed.

It would be nice if every dealer of every product could do what you suggest, but I don't think that is possible or reasonable to expect. In your world, if dealers were all like you suggest, would we even need manufacturer warrantees at all?

[SCVkoiboy]

JG,

I am not defending the dealer in this case. He can do that for himself. Believe me, I would love it if every company did as you suggest. I think it is a good business model, but I also believe it is a costly one that some companies cannot afford. I honestly don't know the answer, but I feel comfortable dealing with Tom C (as he has done other things way out of his way to help me with pond problems). As a consumer, trust and integrity is important to me. I trust Tom and I believe he has integrity (based on much more that is described here). I prefer to do business with people I trust. I certaintly wouldn't buy anything from William or Steve if I ever had to do business with them directly as I don't trust them and I think they lack integrity. They may be perfectly nice people and their friends obviously support them because they trust them and feel they do have integrity. I do not. To each their own. I can respect that as other's should respect my opinions.