Koi heads

[jnorth]

I've noticed that there seem to be two types of heads or mouths when it comes to koi. There is the type that seems to do well in Japanese shows and then the type that seems to be more common. If you look at the two attched pics you will see one(kohaku) that has a very square looking head and the other (sanke) is more triangular. My question is when they are tosai how do you tell if it is going to have a square or a triangle face? Is this a bloodline trait? Certain breeders have one and not the other? More importantly how do you tell when it is tosai if it is going to have the square face or triangular? Thanks. BTW the pics are from Keirin.

[KoiCop]

the koi on the K-B magazine cover that I'm looking at right now (2005 No. 9) shows the square jaw line (the winner of the 22nd All-Japan Wakagoi Show). Inside, as the winning fish get smaller and smaller, the jaw lines seem to get more and more triangular.

Now I'm no expert, but I've thought it to be more a function of size (and maturity) rather than the bloodline.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing from the experts? Don

[jnorth]

I've noticed that as well Don but the flip side of the coin is that not all large koi have the square face. Some of them are still triangular. I too am looking forward to the answer.

[aquitori]

It is hard to tell how a fish's head will develop...I know that alot of fish's head start off narrow when tosai but end up big...and the tosai who's head is alot more blocky tend to be smaller as they mature....

The head of fish matures later when you start to notice the cheeks start to fill in giving the head a spindle look.

[dinh]

Second motion to Tony Montana. Buying Tosai, it is unpredictable for the head shape in the future.

BTW, hope to hear comments from experienced breeders for this.

--Dinh

[aquitori]

Jnorth, maybe when I see you in LA we can have a seminar on future potential of tosai...and discuss conformation.

[jbolding]

I would love to have more input from others about this. Perhaphs we could have an inpromptu seminar at the upcoming KOI KICHI show.

[dinh]

Quote: Originally Posted by jbolding I would love to have more input from others about this. Perhaphs we could have an inpromptu seminar at the upcoming KOI KICHI show.

If not, we may want to request Larry to have it at All-Bay Area show seminar(April 1). I remember Grant Fujita did some seminars on how to select tategoi body/head shape couple years back.. will see.

[dick benbow]

heads are both a result of genetics and environment.
for example: ever seen a tosai with a pinched face, it's a cause of super crowding in it's first formulative months of growing.
look at the parents to get an idea...
also look at the head as tosai...is it long, that's what you want as it will grow large.
what does long mean?

look at the distance from the eyes to the nose.

take that length and apply it to the distance between the eye and the gill cover.
if it's about the same as the nose tip, you have and average growth potential
if it's greater than and maybe half again as long your chances are good to have an extra large koi, again pond size, number of koi etc (environmental issues)
will play a part hopes this helps

[dick benbow]

just looked at maurice's 2005 harvest post with tosai photos. take a look at them to get a sense of a longer head.....