Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

[hwong]

Oi Roger, Enuf already lah. Wah LAn, considering that I was going to ask you to start posting again... Want me to construct a ring for the 2 of you ah?

Better think of more and better ideas to improve the club and develop the hobby. Big kois show KLCC convention center?

CAnt help you on your BH, You had a 2 year head start on us... so you are the expert lah.

[dtbh]

Sorry guys, I missed one full page with so much flying around until junglegeorge alerted me. I never meant to keep silent. I will definitely continue to post whatever I find from this experiment. I am sorry that so many unrelated postings have to happen here as well. It takes two hands to clap and only if one, hopefully both, can restrain himself/herself there will be no further "clapping".

Here goes :

Hwong : Hey Doc! You have 5 kois coming back. Remember you underwrote 2 kois. If you back off, you have to find me an undertaker!

Oops, sorry. I forgot. Will do the necessary.


Mickey the windowman : Your experiment is of great value to me. The experiments of others have been followed carefully over the past couple years and I do not believe there is any that have paralleled what you are attempting to measure. Good luck with your pond and fish.

My feeding volume is minute compared to the way you feed in your tropical climate, but I would not be brave enough to send my smaller amount of koi shit straight to a shower and not through a vortex first. Belt and suspenders for me thank you.

Hi Mickey, I am glad to share. Unless I am banned from the forum I will continue to post the results. Thanks for the kind words.


George: So you have 2 hydroponic ponds, most likely trying to maintain a certain nitrate level for their benefit, and filters, and all of those total up to 24 tons, plus 18 tons of koi pond? 42 tons in all.So you have 42 tons, which requires 420 kg of BH, you have 250kg. You need a flow rate of 2-3x total tons/hr. So you need 84-120 tons/hr, you have 38 tons/hr. That is the recommended way for going to an all BH system.



You must remember I will eventually by-pass the other filters after which we will be working on 18tons. Therefore 250kg of BH should be enough. At 38 ton/hr flowrate over the shower we will eventually have slightly more than 2x pond turnover.





I shall continue to maintain my sanity.

dtbh

[junglegeorge12]

Ok, so your plan to bypass includes seperating the hydroponic ponds? Is that correct? That is what I would do as well. That way your flow and your BH will be up to specs, and should do well.

What about treating your source water? Any plans or thoughts yet?

The other thought I would have personally, is even though BH is great, I would have a vortex or large, easily cleaned or flushed settelment before it, and perhaps a seive. I found that with the BH the water condition was great in terms of nitrate etc, but it could get slightly cloudy with particles after a heavy rain storm. I put a vortex with a homemade seive, and wallah, problem gone.



On the subject roger brought up about the color of his BH, I find the color of the BH at the top of my shower much darker than the color of it further down. I just assumed it was a combination of collecting undesirables being removed, algae due to more direct sunlight there, and more bacteria due to more stuff for it to eat.

I tried tewa's experiment too, with a fish that rubbed against an exposed pipe end and lost some scales. It did hang out next to it, even though I placed it on the other side of the deep end it normally hung out in. It healed very quickly, I was afraid I might lose him due to the extensive injuries he caused himself getting his head stuck in the pipe. Not having two koi similarly injured, I cannot say for 100% it was the BH there that helped out, but it sure did look like it.

Roger, can you send your driver over to clean my pond?

I am sorry to some of you that we americans are setting an example of fighting. If you lived here you would know that there is alot of love here too. But like anything, building relationships full of love and respect are a choice. I personally try to build realtionships of love, but some other folks have dedicated themselves to other things. I recognize my responses to that have not always been the best, I am growing and learning too. So I apologize to the board for my parts of the unlovely stuff.



I hope that I can help the science from Japan and that region of the world gain the respect it deserves. Know that even though some americans have been taught not to respect it, the leaders of America do respect it deeply and very much appreciate all that has been done to improve so many industries and lives with it, like filtration, medical equipment and devices, sensing, building controls and world security. Keep up the good work!

[James P]

Nice post George, but we are in the OUTSIDE forum now, not the main board, and you need to do some editing here first -----



A long ramble to the readers and my Malaysian/ Chinese fellow koi kichi–
My apologies once again, for dominating the conversation. A thread can be an orderly thing- flowing with a polite give and take until a subject gets well fleshed out and some good ground gets covered.

A thread can also be a fiery debate. There is nothing wrong with spirited give and take! In fact they tend to be the MOST read and the MOST number of hits on these boards. And often the MOST educational .The subject of BH would be of the former type except that the distributors claim a special power ( one we can’t see or measure but simply must believe). This begs for challenge and conversation, and yes, some over boiling passion. I admit that this debate however has gotten way to personal.

The other reality is that these hobby boards also get boring at times. No one’s fault, just a flat period when most have all the information they need or can absorb for the moment. It is good to live’n things up once in a while.



We are now in the "OUTSIDE" section of this forum index. That means that the normal KOI stuff is lost in this battle zone. The little fink George will now have to amend and retract his last two posts as they contain lies and distortions. This new victim role is quite comical. It’s a little too late to wiggle out of this with a ‘born again’ posture. Lest you all forget, the poor George person, posted THIS a little while ago—

Internet gurus--JR's real goal in life publicly stated!!

Your post had several outright lies right in it you should be aware of oh oldjapan guru -

One- Where you got the 3 year number I do not know, maybe from your timeline of having gone without bathing?

Two-I learned about this hobby over twelve years in my own home, and prior to that helping my Korean neighbor keep his since I was about 5. I have watched these chats for almost a decade and never posted until about a year ago. You have been a condescending jerk to anyone who supported anything that could hurt an EA interest that whole time and have tried to degrade and humiliate every one of them publicly. THAT is called watching and gathering intel. A skill you could obviously use, rather than your innacurate gift of presumption.

Three- I have only ever purchased ONE item from an East Coast dealer. I will let you make an idiot of yourself guessing who, when, and what.

Four-Your only accurate comment so far is directed at the wrong person---I can tell you- you’re clueless

You do not know who I am, or who I am not. However your ten year habit of using chat forums to attempt to belittle anyone you thought you could is your only really reliable characteristic. Talk about living vicariously through an imaginary internet identity. You take the cake, but are very endearing nonetheless. You remind me of an old worn out teddy bear my brother had.
As for Japan, your knowledge is tourist deep. You embody everything the average Japanese welcome for financial reason but despise but do not know it. Pretending to 'know them' and posing as a guruish expert to the western world. All you are is a loud tourist trying to create a surfish industry for koi wiht your buddies, so your buddies can sell westerners stuff that costs a lot and makes them feel fabulous. Your are like a soul surfer who works for a board maker buit does not tell anyone on the beach.

Guys like you had to keep quiet until the WW2 generation passed, otherwise they would have had to speak with your lame behind in person and you would have wet your undies.

Do you know what a watchman is JR, or a Firecontrolman? They learn by watching and observing, not by ads. I do watch ads, to see what folks are really up to. As for living them, that is you, living out the 70s koi mag stories and ads and EAs dreamy self promoting talk. I can hear the Beach Boys in the background every time you post. How you connected me to your rant I do not know.

How you connect anyone who likes Momotaro to your newly developed class of 'ignorant koi keepers' I do not know. As for the ad thing, keep your head low and your helmet on is my motto. Interesting how you attempt to categorize EVERYONE who likes Momo negatively, and yourself as an 'in the know guru'. How do you gather your intel JR? By internet personal info and google sat photos and from English tourists??? Truly sad and so yesterday. You do not even recognize a rabbit trail when you are ON it? If you would like to know more about who I am JR all you have to do is ask, I have nothing to hide. That way you won't look so foolish guessing. We could have been friends, I tried, but you do not seem very sociable this year.

I know you think your buddies have done wonders for the hobby and deserve their due, but really, does it nescessitate all this unfounded ugliness towards others? My post was intended to be a joke, must be hard to laugh for you right now though.

By the way, I heard Dupont wants to sue EA for stealing the Answer from them. I heard several ink manufacturers are a little hot under the collar about that one as well. Not to mention how Lee might be able to get a tidy sum for damages for their smear campaign on him. Let me give you some free advice old man, do not smear people unless you know them. And stop bringing your knife to gun fights.

Indeed, internet ads by 'east coast' people are now 'bad' and momotaro appreciaters are 'bad'. Hmmm who does that leave old watchman? I mean, other than the english and EA? Do tell, as we all anxiously await your next enlightening post that will undoubtedly belittle me and numerous others, and label us with swooshy titles and characteristics and no real grounding in fact. I cannot wait for the next verbal wonder you produce. I mean, how long do you think the masses will stay mesmerized by deceptive and subtly suggestive words of wondrous delusion and accusation spoken for personal exaltation and security?

It only takes one Jeremiah to undo 10,000 of Ahabs prophets. No matter how much of the king's money they have.



Now THAT was personal. This is when things left the realm of debate. I left it alone and continued on in my style with definite tweaks and digs but always around the greater topic and always with humor.

George has now sent me a PM which I eluded to with some excerpts in the post above. He has tried to deny this and once again lied and distorted things in his last two posts. I’ve given him a chance to modify his words so I don’t have to cause him further embarrassment or come off like the bad guy he imagines me to be. Otherwise I will post the PM here and he will have to ‘explain away’ why there are no threats and implied threats in his PM. It will come down to whether we believe George or the actual words he wrote? That should be interesting to watch that particular spin.

George is now saying he has asked me to leave him alone 100 times now. Does ANYONE see one hundred requests for me to leave him alone??? I do see that this is a brand new tact to avoid going deeper in the whole he has dug for himself- but then again, this poor me role is so new maybe I have not had time to adjust?

Some may see me as a bully here? I see me as an older guy who is going to help a younger guy grow a bit . And I admit, I can be like a dog with a bone sometimes. But in the end, this will all be a maturing experience for George.

[James P]

Roger, I read your post regarding the first chamber of BH with interest. This has also been my experience. In fact I posted something on another board that I copied and pasted here for your review and possible comment--

-- Let me say at the outset that I’m using BH now and it is proving to be a fine TT and wet/dry filter media. It, like all the rest, has some short comings( price per square meter being a big one)- but on par, I would rate it high for reliability, nitrification and drip point characteristics.

Having said that, I think the marketing, in an attempt to capture market share and get noticed, has short circuited the benefits of the media with an over emphasis on FIR potential. And I place this blame squarely on the shoulders of the western marketers who have been forced to compete with the western businesses. Not to say that the Japanese as a culture do not believe in the healing powers of FIR. And not to say that this writer believes that FIR does not exist or that ceramics are not identified as a measurable source of FIR. It is the next part- the curiously miraculous powers of FIR and filtration that causes the irrepressible chuckle to slip out each time. And also the frustration levels to rise with the hucksters spinning it.

One of the obvious things wrong with the FIR story is that there is no mention of an ‘on/off’ switch for FIR radiation! It either emits or it doesn’t? Yet, BH placed in a submerged situation or NEW BH does not work!? It does of course, eventually come on line as an excellent nitrification surface but it does not make ‘cluster water’ or emit rays to manage organics right away! And there is no mention in the literature about warming up time.
I thought the experiment Roark, Sav and SMG did with the BH media at their clinic/party was very clever. Placing a simple and weak barrier around the media was simple enough but the results were , as Homer Simpson would say, just so ---‘Doohhhhhh!’ The light bulb going on here for me, in that experiment, was that FIR can be indeed be tested for presence.
I did as one of my own tests, a series of studies where I used BH ‘above surface’ and ‘below surface’ to illustrate the FIR powers or lack thereof, in each situation. Here is a photo of detritus accumulation in a submerged setting– First picture. The second picture shows the protein accumulation when the water is ‘beaten’ with a second TT designed to separate out DOC—

[James P]

Roger, I've also observed the same 'lack of coloring' when plastic media is used in a submerged situation Vs. a TT or wet/dry situation. Never did a serious study regarding the lack of color change but can tell you the 'clean' looking plastic media always did adequate nitrification even though it looked 'uninhabited'.
Those who point to biofilm coloring as proof of active bacteria growth are usually correct. But sometimes the coloring is really algae and diatom growth and not the sole presence of nitrifiers and other aerobic species.

I have no doubt, with its irregular pitted surface, that BH has any trouble quickly attracting bacteria and encouraging its attachment. Same is true of lava rock and coral. I do believe that submerged plactic media is not, at least initially, a welcoming surface for attaching bacteria. Micro biologists tell us that most surfaces must first be conditioned by minerals and other forms of microbial life before sessil bacteria species can attach. In the second phase, these tiny 'colonists' must signal one another with chemicals to trigger biofilm/slime formation. How this occurs in submerged vs elevated media and the actual type of media is still not well understood.

[Valarc]

JR, that's an interesting point about the plastic media - I've seen a couple of people talk about good results using PP to "etch" kaldnes and remove the film on the media from the manufacturing process. They claim it cycles much fater this way. If that's true, I wonder why EA doesn't do this at the plant - for the price people charge for hunks of plastic, they could afford a bit of PP!

[James P]

So how can all this be explained? I think first a basic perspective is needed.

Bacteria will grow on all surfaces. Walls of pond, floor, pipe work and even the koi! We create biofilter sections to accommodate very large numbers of bacteria needed to manage all the waste material produced by the koi. This removal of toxic waste is a series of simple biochemical reactions. And like all reactions they can be instant and continuous or inefficient and partial. When it comes to efficience, the bacteria require one basic thing- an inexhaustible supply of oxygen molecules. Since water is low in oxygen compared to the greater atmosphere, adding aeration and moving water to the site is very helpful. Lifting the entire kit out of the water is unbelievably helpful!

In the second phase of what we call filtration is the issue of organic waste. That would be that material that is not ready in its present form to be broken down by the bacteria we were just talking about. So we have two choices- encourage the bacteria that DO break it down for the aforementioned group - or- remove it so that it is not an issue at all. This , as it turns out, is a fundamental fork in the road as to how one is going to design a pond and maintain that system.

And to add the third and final point of this post- once all is accomplished or even during the ‘accomplishment’ phase, gaseous compounds are being produced and are free in the pond’s water column. They will slowly leave the water at the surface but will influence the fish and the general biology until that time. So it behooves us to remove this material as efficiently as possible. This is called degassing or off gassing and is a fundamental stage of purifying water. It also effects how ‘active’ the nitrification process must be in the long run. The same benefits derived by lifting the nitrification unit out of the water is also the way to increase the efficiency of off gassing. We, in effect, create a new ‘ remote’ water/atmosphere interface by running water over media.

So historically, aquaculture, aquarists and koi keepers have used water changes to restore water quality once all the above biological processes and chemical reactions both over loaded and exhausted the purity of the water column.

In larger systems, new water is allowed to enter and leave the system continuously so that the same benefit of a water change event is realized. Only in this case, the open ended dilution benefit keeps toxins from ever building and needed buffers from ever being exhausted. IN fact, the biofilter process can be greatly reduced as the ‘need’‘ and presence of nutrient to feed the filter are reduced across the board. This then, has the effect, of changing the view of biofiltration from ‘ keeper of the system’ to ‘ back up for the system’.

So we can find in the literature that Jade, ceramics, mineral stones, coral, tree bark and many other things emit FIR. But to credit FIR for results or to suggest that ceramics make all the above biological concepts and chemistry moot is a bit over doing it, I think? This is my only point.

[James P]

Val, on the plastic media comment, I agree! If I can get it off the old dead hard drive, I'll post a picture of my TTs with different ages of identical type media. When I post it, I'm remind the readers that the submerged media after several months was a white as it was out of the box. I think I have pictures of that as well? I find plastic media to be highly efficient with huge surface space per square meter, great packing characteristics and good void space ratios. But it is a bugger to get going in the first four weeks! Once on line, it is 'sturdy' and dependable as a biofilter.
I've also noticed that if you offer nitrifying bacteria a choice of mulm/detritus or plastic beads, they will occupy the mulm to a greater percentage! You can see this yourself, if you flush a fairly new dirty bubble bead filter and wash away all mulm containing bacteria. The remaining population, occupying the formal plastic media will be insufficant to manage the normal load for an eight hour period or so. As the filter gathers waste and the normal cell divisions happen ( about 8 hours at optimum temps) the system 'rights' itself.

[koifishgirl]

You know this kind of reminded me of when I was a little girl and someone would say something to me or accuse of me of somthing that was not true. I would just keep my mouth shut and let them say what they wanted. Cause my mom always said sticks and stone can break my bones but words will never hurt me. Ignore personal attacks all let children talk.

Judy