Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

[James P]

dtbh, It will be difficult to talk about and describe the momotaro system without constant reference to the mistaken notion of FIR , but I will try---

The comparison I brought up regarding a well designed closed system and an open system really demonstrates the differences in Momotaro's 1500 ton system and a typical closed system using bakki showers.
The big 1500 ton grow out pond circulates its water content once every two hours- that's 12 times a day! And to that loop, 10%, or roughly 150 tons of freshwater, is added. I believe this is huge advantage when growing koi.

[Carloskoi]

living near the beach in Southern Caleefornia i don't have or need an air conditioner. most of the $$$ goes to the three pumps on my 20,000 gallon pond. i also have a electric heater on the hot tub and 300 gallon reef tank that has pumps and halides, and a heater.

this is not a cheap hobby. spending the daughters inheritance. but she will get a great Koi pond some day that she can convert to a pool.

adding a trickle filter to my pond was the best investment in improved water quality i could have made. if i was richer i might have used BH media but i didn't. i only used Matala which seems to be working very well.

Like JR said it still looks pretty clean. it has not turned brown.

The 10 sheets of Matala i have submerged has turned brown. the submerged stuff is just after the vortex and so has a higher organic load than the TT Matala. maybe that makes a difference.

Carl

[mekoi]

Hi Dr Teh, JR, Val and George,

Finally, I'm learning something very interesting I very happy that the dust is settling

JR,
I use PP on my new jap matt before I used it just to be safe. Infact I always use PP or salt clean something that will go in my pond water. Any comment/s on this???

rgds,
Jon

[James P]

Good Morning Jon,

I have been forced , in the past, to battle about PP use. This is shame as it is not the PP I had a problem with, but rather the USE of it! PP is an excellent chemo therapy for the eradication and control of certain protozoan parasites. But like every powerful oxidant, it should be used judiciously.

Jmat is, of course, a common material in the koi hobby. It’s true use is as air conditioning filter and also for stabilizing steep roadside landscape. So by definition and design , it has a ‘trapping’‘ feature to it. The reason it works so well, and so quickly, as a bio media is that it has a relatively large surface space for bacteria to grow, it does not decay readily from bacteria action on its substrate and it has good void space. This void space is important for biofilm/water ratio and also for encourage a swirling effect WITHIN the complex of fibers that increases the reductive/oxidative reaction ( nitrification). This , as most things on earth, also has a cost associated with it. Along with invisible inorganic nitrogen toxins, fine organics are also delivered to these internal fiber sites. Over time this leads to two things- biofouling of the media surface with organic residue. And two) a biofilm that is well diversified with aerobic/ anaerobic species of bacteria, Organic an inorganic processing bacteria of other species, predator bacteria, fungi, algae, protozoa and other larger forms.

In a well maintained biofilm, these things represent a living filter and micro-ecosystem in perfect balance with its greater environment and routine nutrient source. Over time however, this lush biofilm can be over grown which leads to further biofouling.This is then coupled with the daily bioloading of fish waste, food particles and dead cells. At that point, the presence of such a mass represents a threat to oxygen levels, species domination with the film, ORP levels etc. So cleaning is necessary.

I favor the removal of the media and a dipping in clean pond water ( maybe done in a measuring tub or similar receptacle?) But many believe that a PP charge through the biochamber will oxidize the excess organic build up and reduce resident protozoa such as trichodina and the non pathogen form of costia. In a mature, well seasoned Jmat, PP does not have the power to ‘kill’ the entire colony. Because by definition, a mix of biofilm, bacteria and fine organic waste , is resistant to oxidation. At best, you oxidize the surface area and leave the rest untouched. On the other hand, I have seen , already clean Jmat, sputter and only partly function after a normal PP change. Usually the circulation is slow and the chamber is small in these cases. Or more often the system has been put under other chemo therapy such as malachite green or formalin recently. This is fairly common to see as new hobbyists, with the newest biofilm are often the ones who struggle most with water quality problems and parasitic outbreaks and also the ones who tend to use the most chemicals. The secret here is pretty simple- respect the microbes as that is what keeps the water quality- not you. And always work at returning the water to a base line rather than try to dominate it.

PP is fine in a breeder setting- a valuable tool. In a hobbyist setting, the long term stability of the system is more important than shifting population management. So in that regard, a physical cleaning the Jmat is probably wiser than a routine PP charge.

As far as a sterilizer before using equipment, no problem. Just remember that PP has a residual effect and that some minor reaction will take place for a time ( hours, not days). Not sure why you would worry about that?

[James P]

This is a weird one but I'll try it and see how it is received--

Biofilm is a colony. Like ants or bees. It is also an ecosystem, like a garden or the plains of the Serengeti.

So when we get into conversations about biofilter technology we are addressing the metabolic needs of a species. And usually only on the most superficial level . This mindset is based on the knowledge we gain from academic info we get from the lab. And the lab is expert at revealing the workings of the individual cell and a mass of these same cells. As valuable as this information, and the picture it paints is, it is also misleading to the hobbyist who wishes to know how his/her filter will operate seasonally and over the years. And that ‘forest through the trees’ perspective WILL be missed if we simply know about how the cell manages ammonia.

From the Big Picture point of view, we only care about the fish. And the fish only care about the water quality. The water quality however is completely dependant on the invisible microbes.

If you read any of maeda’s deeper teachings and inner workings, you quickly realize he is a product of his environment. He is a student of nishikigoi in the Japanese tradition. In this philosophy is rooted a belief that koi are best produced in ‘nature’. This does not mean always in mud. But it does mean we need to harness the benefits of the mud pond. Including the microbal and algal benefits.

( gotta run)

[PapaBear]

James P,
I think Jon's post was less about pond chemo (although your points are very well taken on that issue) but rather about pre-treating new Mat before introducing it to the system. I would tend to believe that such a pre-treatment would not only disinfect & cleanse manufacturing residues, but the oxidation of the media surface would promote more rapid colonization. What do you think?
Jon,
When you pretreat with PP do you do a follow up with H2O3 as you would in a general pond treatment? I would think the oxygen "supercharge" the mat would get out of that would be beneficial as well.

[James P]

aaah, I see. Yep I get it now--- the idea of conditioning a surface. Well I guess its got some merit? I wasn't getting it because when I think of Jmat, I think of a surface that is pretty quick to start;

This has to do with how colonist individual bacteria or rafts, as micro biologists call them, find their way to a surface from the passing current they ride on. It involves drifting, natural settling and finally a weak electic attraction to the surface. The surface is then 'tried out' by the colonists unit they decide if it is suitable zone to set up shop. Once the numbers of bacteria get to a critical mass, they signal one another and construction begins.
What we're talking about here is that point of decision making as to attaching permentantly or not. And with Jmat and BH it is a no brainer for the bacteria- its home! Jmat offers the added attaction of having 'an inside' surface as well as an outside surface. This causes eddies and whirling effects that help drive ammonia absorption into the cell. So the set up stage is pretty quick.

[Maurice]

Jim, a little way off the bakki shower topic, but...

...What do you make of Jasper Kuijper's finding, with regard to Japanese Matting?

Maurice.

[junglegeorge12]

dtbh- I brought that up only because I went through the same process you are planning of installing a shower, waiting for it to mature, then removing my other filtration. The thunderstorms did not present a problem until I had removed the other filtration. With just the other filtration I had worse problems, with both the problem was gone, then with just BH it returned but not as bad. So I added a vortex and homemade seive. Problem solved.JR I hope you can handle future issues with me in PM to spare the innocent. I also hope you are not going to misqoute and reword my posts any more. Helloooo, it's not working...

Have you thought of any solutions to your incoming water issues yet dtbh? I haven't seen you mention that. Since you have already stopped daily changes and gone to weekly, fixing it would only add more verascity to your experiment at this point imho.

[junglegeorge12]

Quote: Originally Posted by Maurice Jim, a little way off the bakki shower topic, but... ...What do you make of Jasper Kuijper's finding, with regard to Japanese Matting? Maurice.

What were his findings Maurice? I haven't heard.

As for the color and colonization of bacteria, there is more than one factor involved. One is maturity, another is oxygen and air exposure, amount of waste, type of wastes, and other things PapaBear brought up, such as sunlight, FIR, and ferroelectricity that influence bacteria strain growths. Many things influence bacteria strains and growth. It is the survival of the fittest for common resources they need, so the one with the most resources particular to it's needs will eventually dominate the ones without as many resources and favorable conditions. Unless the less favored one is simply stronger and more durable and can last through anything.

The Navy and NASA do lots of research into that area because the wrong thing growing in the wrong place can cause explosions, equipment failures, or no booms when the Pentagon wants a big one.

The photos of your pond look spectacular dtbh. You have a water garden and koi paradise there. All you need now are the chaise lounges, a guy to bring you drinks on a silver tray, and a pagoda hanging over the water. Maybe an underwater elevator to take you down to the secret lab so you can 007 surprise your guests.