Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

[kingkong]

If you compare BH to mats, vinyl rock, and many other types of media with same koi load, BH retains only between 1/5 to 1/10 of sludge. Media stays clean while bacteria breaks down the waste incredibly well. Bacteria itself consumes oxygen so shower system on very end aerates water returning to pond making it rich in dissolved oxygen.

[dtbh]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 dtbh, have you considered checking other concerns as causes of the high nitrate and nitrite readings? ie a pile of poo or old food collected and rotting somewhere in the system or in the old conventional filter media. I have seen medias impacted from old food that were like nitrate factories. I have also seen plants cause the same problem. Do you have alot of plants? If so what do the roots look like? Is there a possibility of a alot of leaves rotting away in the water? The reason I ask is that my nitrate reading went from 10ppm to 0 within 3 weeks of switching over. Also, how high is your shower, and how many of them are you using at what flow rate per set? You may need to completely clean out the old fiter and wash or change the media. Also, have you checked the nitrate and nitrite adn water conditions of your incoming water as a potential problem? Especially changing 10% daily. Just your water changes should have dropped the nitrate off the chart, so I think you have another unadressed problem.

Hi, For those who know me are aware that I am very fussy about sludge accumulation. I siphon them daily and all my chambers are clean to the bone. I clean my materials a few chambers at a time weekly although I must admit the materials are not 100% cleaned by the siphoning pump I am using. Unlikely to be the source of the nitrates but with so much filter materials it made add up and I cannot totally exclude it.

I also must admit that I have some plants (to appease my missus ) but I siphon their roots as well...weekly. I do not have a nitrite problem (zero) only this nitrates that is bugging me. Incidentally what is the conversion for mg/100ml to ppm? I will check the source water for nitrates this evening.

I am using a 4-tray Bakki Shower at 5ft tall in total.

Thanks, dtbh

[dtbh]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee I'm going to be mentally retching as i write this but here it goes.... i agree with hurrrrk....JG. and have to disagree with valarrrrac on their stances in this thread.... DTBH states he collects the "pooh" before it goes to the Porous Media Shower....and therefore does not allow the PMS to destroy the pooh..... DTBH I like the idea of catching what you can before the PMS, BUT I also believe that the accumulation should be "dumped" daily...or twice daily. letting it sit where you do defeats the experiment.

Hi Luke, the poop is removed daily and occasionally twice a day...my usual routine with/without the BS/BH. The interesting thing is that, up to now, the sludge accumulation in the mid-water filter is the same as before. I suspect the poop is "pulverised" into a fine suspension not enough to cloud my pond water (crystal clear...will show some photos later) but can still settle in that filter.

[luke frisbee]

DTBH,
I'm sorry, I think I misinterpreted what you wrote about the accumulations. if you are getting most of it out then i would think that should be sufficient...then again?

[Carloskoi]

My DOC's wind up in the skimmer where they are scooped out a couple of times per day.

since the drip plate has been online the foam has decreased to about 1/5 or less of what it was before even with the TT filter. i can only guess that it is being further processed by bacteria into ever smaller substances.

the first and second pictures are with the TT just after it was built.

the third is recent. much better clarity.

Carl

[Carloskoi]

the now picture

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by James P Papabear, I'm not new on this board so I don't need to hang around to get anything ? I think I've been posting here since day 1? I used the name JR but for some reason the new webmaster won't allow me in any more so-- I'm now James P. I have no idea how long you have been studying Bakki Showers, but I've been following them since their introduction in Rinko magazine about 6 years ago. At that time, they were used in conjunction with submerged Jmat chambers and also with floating water plants ( for looks as well as function). After seeing them for so long I finally decided to get on a plane and go over and look for myself. It was a very interesting visit to say the least. I don't know what you mean when you say "all those Japanese selling $5K koi----" could you explain that remark? JR

Nothing complicated. Simply a statement of fact that I've seen Bakki Showers in a number of pictures from prominent Japanese breeders of high quality Koi. There was even a post about one of them prominently displayed on this forum last week I believe. Since they are generally considered rather knowledgable in Koi keeping and maintaining the best water quality for health and color I tend to take note of what I see there first.
I don't claim to be an expert in Koi or Bakki showers (like I said I don't even have a BS/BH). I'm here for the pleasure and learning experience more than anything else. The information you gave in your post was informative and relevant. It was the "let me type slowly so you can keep up" attitude you conveyed I didn't think was appropriate. DTBH is performing a personal experiment of his own design (just as you did) and he has implied none of the "magic" referred to by some in this thread.
Just because someone in the past may have gone 'round the bend on the topic doesn't make him guilty of it. Let his model stand on its own two feet and speak for itself. I get the impression that if it doesn't work out he will be the first one to say so.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valarc They are there, trust me - usually by this point the ones with a commercial interest start to chime in about magic rays. I am very new to koi, but have been arguing with the pseudoscientists selling BHM since day one. I notice by your low post count that you might be new here - you're probably lucky in that you have most likely missed a couple of VERY long threads on several boards, filled with lots of personal attacks, and lots of people who think they know science and have not a clue - all on the subject of bacteria house media. There are quite a few folks who advocate using a bakki shower as the ONLY filtration, whatsoever, anywhere in a pond. They claim you can pump from the bottom drain directly to the shower, and return to the pond - no form of solids removal at all, and have perfect water quality and fish that not only never die, but grant wishes and can fly. Ok maybe not the last parts, but those are just as much fantasy as the concept of solids "somehow" disappearing. The real secret, as has been revealed in many cases, is that the design where only bakki showers are used includes one other key element - continuous water flow-through. That is, those solids that are pulverized into tiny bits by the bakki shower, get washed away with a constant 24/7 water change. Of course the zealots never acknowledge this point either, and claim the bakki shower is doing something mystical to the solids.

Glad I missed the foolishness and selfserving nonsense, but my reference was to "this thread" only. If there are fanatics out there who decide to chime in I doubt they'll get much help from this experiment. He is applying strict protocols to his test and not making any attempt to exaggerate his results.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Carloskoi My DOC's wind up in the skimmer where they are scooped out a couple of times per day. since the drip plate has been online the foam has decreased to about 1/5 or less of what it was before even with the TT filter. i can only guess that it is being further processed by bacteria into ever smaller substances. the first and second pictures are with the TT just after it was built. the third is recent. much better clarity. Carl

Nice piece of work, and a good looking collection of koi as well

[junglegeorge12]

It is not myticism or worship val, it is just old fashioned honesty. I believe Einstein's classmates thought he was a nutsy off balance mystic and not much of a scientist. Being brilliant does not make one a mystic, a worshipper of false gods, or crazy, val. In fact, Einstein set out to find out how God made the universe and what His thoughts were. He was not a mystic or a universalist. He was a Jew, and an honest one.

Also, only one person did the 24/7 water change deal. I change about 5-10% weekly like normal folks. So do most BH owners. In fact, I change less with BH now since I do not have to worry about nitrate at all. I do have a vortex and will eventually have a seive too. I homemade one and it worked great. Took it out to change some piping and have not redone it yet. Having kept ponds for many years, I know when something works and when it is hype. That is why I do not own a nexus. I can do the same thing with blocks and cement for $50.

Luke, I am glad you were honest even though it was so obviously painful. Maybe one day it will hurt less. One thing I am coming to appreciate about you, is you are honest about what you see and think. You call them like you see them no matter what. I like that trait. I might not always be on the enjoyable end of it, but at least it is honest.

The point I originally made was about nitrates and nitrite, not solids and what happens with them. That's a whole different subject.

The guys I have listened to recently who breed water plants are thinking differently now than ten years ago. They maintain that plants survive better at a certain nitrate and nitrite level, so they naturally keep the water at a level they like, depending on the plant. One way that happens is part of the plant or it's roots dies, and it sits in the water rotting, making food for the living part of the plant. So I personally am not a big fan of hydroponic filtration ponds. I think they keep nitrate and nitrite higher than I would want them for koi. Some decorative plants in a tasteful and limited fashion are cool. I do not know all the science behind it, but that is what they have been saying.

Also, just having a shower with proper sizing, and 10% water changes should reduce your nitrate some regardless of media. I have also done a test, taking ammonia and dumping it in a shower with BH first day, and in two days it was gone. Tried the same with new lava rock, it stayed for almost 3 weeks. Explain that one you old trusty scientists. Same pond, same load, same flow, same shower. Only difference was the media. That is a brain teaser FIR the resident scientists.

If you are good research scientists you should have already posted the answer to the question you still have never answered long ago. JR, it should be frustrating you by now that your findings so far do not explain what everyone is experiencing with BH. The effects it is having goes beyond the rational of your findings. You know that, but seem to be passionately avoiding the issue. I have even seen you post that BH is the best media, but yet you cannot really explain the whole why, only part of it. Perhaps it is time to purchase and read some Navy Journals.

The fact that nitrate has not dropped at all tells me we have another issue or perhaps issues to resolve.

I know the makers of BH say that it does need a certain amount of waste to work best.

If he has something there keeping the nitrate level up, no filtration can fix it, unless it is oversized. Testing BH that way, or any filter that way appears bogus. It may change in time as the filter matures, but if he has a nitrate factory there, it probably won't have much effect. Just the shower should have reduced the nitrate. The fact it has not tells me nitrate is being injected into the system somehow, if the shower is properly sized. He is also feeding 9x daily, how much, at what intervals, and how much of that is not being eaten is another issue I would look at.

I understand the point about not changing anything. But reality is, this system is not in a condtion to test any filter or media. BH may miraculously pull it back from over the edge, and as a seller of it I would love to see that happen. I waited until the 3 week seeding time to post to see what would happen. However, right now, it would appear as if the emperor has no clothes. Using findings on a system with these obvious problems to discredit a media is, shall we say, rather unethical and kind of wimpy???

From what I have seen and read so far, I am convinced there is another serious issue to look at if he wants to zero nitrates and nitrites out. If that is the goal as stated. If you want to wait to see if BH can pull it up out of the hole, fine and I understand. However, when your experiment is done, you will still have issues that I personally would resolve if it were my pond system.

Enjoy the experiment. Please keep us posted on how things progress. BTW, I have no indication you are purposely doing this to discredit BH, although some will undoubtedly jump on the oppurtunity to do so at the first possible chance. As soon as it looked bad for BH and I posted, the same old fans I have had for a while now hit the fans with flurries of posts. 3 pages of them in one day. This thread went for two weeks with two pages. Nice to see I am maintaining my following even in my absence. Even if it is a hostile following.

Angry crowds are so predictable, and I appreciate them for that. Seriously, pokes aside, I do enjoy the whole thought stimulating forum we are all making happen together. I appreciate all the contributions, even the unfriendly ones towards me are part of what makes it a great place and a learning event for us all. I would be bored if you all thought like me. I think diversity is one of the coolest parts of creation. We all have the right to totally disagree. Except in China, N Korea, Palestine, and Venzuela. Feel free to add to the list.

Nice to see you posting btw JR, I would miss you if you left or were banned. We do not have to agree or like each other to make this an enjoyable and fun place.