Bakki Shower/Bacteria House vs Conventional Submerged Filtration System.

[MikeM]

A couple of comments. First, having seen pics of the koi dtbh cultivates, we could all wish to do so well. Hard to imagine doing better short of a mud pond or Momotaro's greenhouse. Second, if the fresh water is that high in nitrate, the system is doing extremely well to maintain the level so close to the source level. Third, to the extent a Bakki-type system results in lower nitrate levels, I'd look at degassing effects lowering ammonia levels, which in turn produces lower nitrate. [I recently read a post about an experiment that concluded there was no reduction in ammonia levels as a result of degassing. This conclusion is contradicted by my personal experience. I think everyone has smelled the ammonia released in the atmosphere by degassing units, open trickle systems and the like.] Fourth, I do not believe that I've read or heard of anyone with a Bakki-type system concluding that they do not work, but much disagreement about how they work and the comparative benefits of less expensive alternatives. I think sometimes the discussion gets extreme when someone de-bunking a claim regarding how it works goes further to say this sort of system does not work. Perhaps not the cure-all some would like it to be, but not many ponds would be unimproved by the addition of a shower system, whether it be an open shower like the Bakki-type systems or the enclosed shower of a trickle tower.

As an aside: dtbh, how about progress shots of your Shiro Utsuri some time soon?

[dick benbow]

enjoyed this thread immensely. It's been awhile since the iintroduction of BH to begin to see a concensus of the opinions we value and trust coming closer together on an affirmation.good stuff......

[James P]

True enough mike. Most of this I blame on outrageous marketing. The idea that special perpetual rays change molecules and supercharge mineralization is one example. The other is that organic waste management is automatically dealt with and organics simply ' stop being'.

I have always resented the marketing that is built on mis-direction. Creating a ritual or routine so that you can hype the benefits or unique powers of your product over all others is disingenuous . And at worst, deceitful.

All those adding ‘above water’ filtration techniques to a submerged system or switching to a TT system will notice remarkable results in terms of nitrate levels, nitrification efficiency and general look of pond water. They will see better growth, better color and better appetites in their fish as well. This is a no brainer. Marine fish keepers have know this for two decades now.

I only hope that the promoters of this marketing approach are innocent types experiencing these results for the first time. And in that excitement, are naturally crediting the media with these cause and effect observations. If that is not so and they are actually wise and experienced water keepers who are doing slight of hand with the kiddies, then I’m truly disappointed .

So on one hand, we have the marketers of ‘kits’ that hype results and maybe create complicated routines to downplay all media/filter short comings and on the other, we have nutty professors claiming they have discovered the ultimate filtration because they have stumbled on above surface filtration, something that’s been around since the 60s!

In the end, the fish are innocent and the bacteria just keep doing what it is they do- the rest is ‘people’ stuff, I guess?

JR

[butterfly]

I never saw a real Bakke shower except the one in Keirin Koi website. If it is anything like that picture in Keirin website, then, it is the most hideous thing I have ever seen associated with a koi pond or landscape. Regardless of whether it works or not, it will simply destroy the fundamental premise: the celebration of nature, associated with a hobbyist's koi pond. Commercial ponds are different. However, Quality koi farm is maintaining giant indoor ponds with much simpler bacteria and algae system with crystal clear water and giant breeding fishes. No Bakke there!!

[kingkong]

Quote: Originally Posted by butterfly I never saw a real Bakke shower except the one in Keirin Koi website. If it is anything like that picture in Keirin website, then, it is the most hideous thing I have ever seen associated with a koi pond or landscape. Regardless of whether it works or not, it will simply destroy the fundamental premise: the celebration of nature, associated with a hobbyist's koi pond. Commercial ponds are different. However, Quality koi farm is maintaining giant indoor ponds with much simpler bacteria and algae system with crystal clear water and giant breeding fishes. No Bakke there!!

Oh butterfly, I have to disagree. To me those beautiful trays harmonize well with the pond theme. They often remind me of Frank Lloyd Wright's most famous work as seen in the residence "fallingwater" just a different variation but what architecture! The rushing sounds of water and strong gleaming horizontal lines creates a soothing environment and a mental escape for passers by don't you agree butterfly?

[junglegeorge12]

Nice to see you say BH is an EXCELLENT media JR. This thread has been much more peaceful than previous ones dick. I think we will have to agree to disagree about the effects of FIR and other ferroelectric and piezo electric effects taking or not taking place. I happen to know for fact something is taking place, but without the proper equipment and the list I asked you for, it is hard to write out here exactly what. I need more data. Rabbit trails and barking up the wrong tree are not hounds getting close. Did you know tigers and bobcats confuse hounds with multiple false trails so they can confuse, trap, and eat them? Had to poke at ya. We should get together in a lab, you with the goal to prove it wrong, me with the goal to prove it right, we will probably come up a filter media that blows the doors off of everything else.As for the ethics concern, it is only unethical if you believe your narrow scientific approach--just kidding!!! I also think Momotaro has demonstrated amazingly honest ethics in other areas, and folks do not normally ethically degenerate over one issue like that. I think there are other manufacturers with much more graphic and deceptive ethics and marketing/politicing issues.

The one thing you might want to do before drawing your conclusions butterfly, is actually set up and listen to a bakki. The noise is like rain in the rainforest. Very natural and soothingly beautiful. My wife loves the noise. I hid my shower behind some rocks and a large plant with very large and beautiful wine colored flowers. I am blessed to live where the flowers grow and bloom year round, are huge, and many sweet smelling jasmine varieties as well. In one year I grew a fenced wall of canarios from 1ft tall to a overflowing a six foot fence height. It has hundreds of flowers on it now.

[junglegeorge12]

DTBH, you might want to think about reducing your fresh water changes to 10% weekly until you get it sorted out. It will give your bakki time to lower the nitrate level.

Longer term, maybe a 600 or 1000 gallon tank with a small pump, mini bakki and shower could serve to treat your incoming water and reduce nitrates for a few days before introducing it to the pond? Another thought would be to run all your rain gutters nd drains to a tank and use that for water changes instead of the street.

Glad you found a source for the problem. Hope it is the only one.

[butterfly]

Quote: Originally Posted by kingkong Oh butterfly, I have to disagree. To me those beautiful trays harmonize well with the pond theme. They often remind me of Frank Lloyd Wright's most famous work as seen in the residence "fallingwater" just a different variation but what architecture! The rushing sounds of water and strong gleaming horizontal lines creates a soothing environment and a mental escape for passers by don't you agree butterfly?

I somewhat agree with you!! Kind of in the same way as our town's sewer processing plant that makes me feel good knowing that out town sewer is being taken care off in the right way.

Seriously, in this board I get a strange sense that people are using too much chemicals and gizmos to maintain something that probably may not need such maintenance. Isn't it defeating the purpose of achieving serenity of nature through a koi pond with chemicals and gizmos. I gues we can achieve soothing sound of rushing water using a japanese style water fall.

I was surprised with the simplicity (large but simple) of water processing in commercial ~200000 gallon pond in Quality koi farm where they do actual breeding. It kind of confirmed ny belief that all that much mechanisation is simply unnecessary. They have a tank with bacteria and another with algae that I believe takes care of the nitrate, NH3 etc. I put some of that algae in my pond.

[Steve Nguyen]

A-men!!! less or no chemicals dependency. cut down the gizmos stuffs. stick with the old traditional Japanese koi pond.

Steve

[quote=
Seriously, in this board I get a strange sense that people are using too much chemicals and gizmos to maintain something that probably may not need such maintenance. Isn't it defeating the purpose of achieving serenity of nature through a koi pond with chemicals and gizmos. One may achieving soothing sound of rushing water using a japanese style water fall.[/QUOTE]

[Valarc]

I happen to know for a fact that the moon is made of green cheese - but no one gave me the fairy dust and unicorn poop I need to prove it, so it's difficult for me to write it out here. I don't have the data, yet I claim to know for a fact - proving I have absolutely no understanding of the scientific process.