A Piece of Art for Hajiro Collection....

[KoiCop]

http://koiphen.com/forums/image.php?...ine=1115330793JPR vbmenu_register("postmenu_237786", true);
The Real Koi Judge
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,434


There seems to be a lot of confusion out there?!

Look at it this way- these are all types of koi breed from the very dark konjo asagi. This is scaled fish. The progressions of this basic black fish go as follows:

Scaled ( wagoi) types:
1) Karasu goi- a sutty all black fish. Sometimes called a crow or a crow koi. It comes all black or black with a red belly ( remember the asagi?)
2) Hajiro - all black like “ the crow” but with white tips on the pecs and the tail
3) Hajeshiro- all black but the white is more invasive. White on pec and tail fin tips and head.
4) Yotsushiro- all black but now white is on ALL the fins, including dorsal and caudal fins.
5) Suminagashi- The white and black interplay with one another forming a reticulation all over the fish’s body.
6) Matsukawabake- a black and white fish with a changing pattern which can go from a kanoko type effect to an alternate pattern and speckling. This is the fish that changes over time and where the kumonryu originates from.

Scaleless types:

1) kumonryu.- Just as shusui was created from asagi, so to was kumonryu created from matsukawabake. The fish should ideally have a pattern identical to hana shusui ( or flowered pattern) only in black and white. In this case, the breeders envisioned not flowers, but a dragon with five points and dragon scales ( large scales of a doitsu fish).
Somewhere along the line all karasugoi that were scaleless became kumonryu instead of being what they were- doitsu karasu, doitsu hajiro, doitsu hageshiro, etc.

This is also why doitsu is further subdivided into kagami goi ( rows of scales on doitsu koi) and kawa goi ( no scales or only a few scales). Today there are all variations on these basic types of scales. In fact, people in America do not realize that most of the doitsu they buy are mixes and not true show doitsu. A good doitsu has scales in a perfect row down the back and a row on each side of the body. Leather carp mixes will only have a ‘ zipper’ down the back and no scales on the side.

JR

[and]

02-28-2005
http://koiphen.com/forums/image.php?...ine=1115330793JPR vbmenu_register("postmenu_237600", true);
The Real Koi Judge
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,434


There is a group of black and white fish known as karasui goi.
They are ALL kawarimono.

The basic hajiro and the hajishiro are differentiated by the location of the white on their fins. One having more white points ( fins and head) than the other.
The matsukawabaki is a ‘variable’ black and white member of this family. And the change in pattern can occur throughout the seasons and through out its life.
Today the Kumonryu is a doitsu only version of these fish but really a kumonryu should be a cross originally coming from shusui and matsukawabaki and it should carry sumi along the sides and the rest of the fish should be white. So things have gotten sloppy as any doitsu/ black and white fish from the entire Kara group is often called and entered in shows as kumonryu. No heart burn I guess since they all compete against one another anyway.
But I do need to point out that none of these are metallic fish? They are entered in kawarimono or doitsu B.
The newest metallic version of kumonryu and beni kumonryu are to be entered into kawarimono as well. This is because the fish is a fish from this black based group of fish and not considered evolved enough to be in with flashy hikari moyo. Time may adjust this ‘perceived’ discrepancy. But it is not a confusion on the ZNA standards. It is well grounded in logic.


[DPC_NOTE: C & P'd from Koiphen]

Here's an old picture of my avatar yotsushiro (the koi which prompted this discussion). Don

[kiky]

Very interesting. Recently I have a new addition to my pond - she is called "Beni Kikokuryu". Into what category does she belong?

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by kiky Very interesting. Recently I have a new addition to my pond - she is called "Beni Kikokuryu". Into what category does she belong?

Hello kiky, lovely koi! ZNA classes it as a Kawarimono. Don

[Ryan S.]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow did you see in Ryan's post of the Charlotte post about doing away with a GC in non gosanke this year. I think the idea is pure gold and koi like shiro's could be a GC winner ( or hairjiro) etc in a non gosanke category. Hope they'll bring back the concept, it's a good one!

No idea why they did that, always a crowd favorate. Shiro Utsuris usually compete for GC, and Ginrin "A" even though they are not Gosanke. GC and Ginrin "B" for not big 3+1. Depends on the club. I think at Koi America Shiro Utsuris was in "B" for GC, but in Ginrin "A", so a club can split them also. Last year a huge Kigoi won GC "B" at Charlotte. Its a good way to reward a hobbiest for transporting such a huge fish. This year it would have came down to a 33" Asagi or a ~30" or so Kumonryu. It would have been a good reward to one of those.

[karipeters]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop http://koiphen.com/forums/image.php?...ine=1115330793JPR vbmenu_register("postmenu_237786", true); The Real Koi Judge Join Date: May 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,434 There seems to be a lot of confusion out there?! Look at it this way- these are all types of koi breed from the very dark konjo asagi. This is scaled fish. The progressions of this basic black fish go as follows: Scaled ( wagoi) types: 1) Karasu goi- a sutty all black fish. Sometimes called a crow or a crow koi. It comes all black or black with a red belly ( remember the asagi?) 2) Hajiro - all black like “ the crow” but with white tips on the pecs and the tail 3) Hajeshiro- all black but the white is more invasive. White on pec and tail fin tips and head. 4) Yotsushiro- all black but now white is on ALL the fins, including dorsal and caudal fins. 5) Suminagashi- The white and black interplay with one another forming a reticulation all over the fish’s body. 6) Matsukawabake- a black and white fish with a changing pattern which can go from a kanoko type effect to an alternate pattern and speckling. This is the fish that changes over time and where the kumonryu originates from. Scaleless types: 1) kumonryu.- Just as shusui was created from asagi, so to was kumonryu created from matsukawabake. The fish should ideally have a pattern identical to hana shusui ( or flowered pattern) only in black and white. In this case, the breeders envisioned not flowers, but a dragon with five points and dragon scales ( large scales of a doitsu fish). Somewhere along the line all karasugoi that were scaleless became kumonryu instead of being what they were- doitsu karasu, doitsu hajiro, doitsu hageshiro, etc. This is also why doitsu is further subdivided into kagami goi ( rows of scales on doitsu koi) and kawa goi ( no scales or only a few scales). Today there are all variations on these basic types of scales. In fact, people in America do not realize that most of the doitsu they buy are mixes and not true show doitsu. A good doitsu has scales in a perfect row down the back and a row on each side of the body. Leather carp mixes will only have a ‘ zipper’ down the back and no scales on the side. JR [and] 02-28-2005 http://koiphen.com/forums/image.php?...ine=1115330793JPR vbmenu_register("postmenu_237600", true); The Real Koi Judge Join Date: May 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,434 There is a group of black and white fish known as karasui goi. They are ALL kawarimono. The basic hajiro and the hajishiro are differentiated by the location of the white on their fins. One having more white points ( fins and head) than the other. The matsukawabaki is a ‘variable’ black and white member of this family. And the change in pattern can occur throughout the seasons and through out its life. Today the Kumonryu is a doitsu only version of these fish but really a kumonryu should be a cross originally coming from shusui and matsukawabaki and it should carry sumi along the sides and the rest of the fish should be white. So things have gotten sloppy as any doitsu/ black and white fish from the entire Kara group is often called and entered in shows as kumonryu. No heart burn I guess since they all compete against one another anyway. But I do need to point out that none of these are metallic fish? They are entered in kawarimono or doitsu B. The newest metallic version of kumonryu and beni kumonryu are to be entered into kawarimono as well. This is because the fish is a fish from this black based group of fish and not considered evolved enough to be in with flashy hikari moyo. Time may adjust this ‘perceived’ discrepancy. But it is not a confusion on the ZNA standards. It is well grounded in logic. [DPC_NOTE: C & P'd from Koiphen] Here's an old picture of my avatar yotsushiro (the koi which prompted this discussion). Don

A great resource for this information is available in the book 'Manual to Nishikigoi' by Takeo Kuroki.

[kiky]

Thanks Koicop.

But what I meant was as regards to the above artice by JR, to which category the beni kikokuryu fall into? For ZNA, of course all other koi besides the regular types are classified as 'kawarimono'. Sorry for being not very clear in my first post.

[KoiCop]

since your beni kikokuryu is not a black & white koi I do not believe it falls into one of JR's classes (above).

Maybe someone else can help explain "where" your koi fits in on the family tree? Don

[dcny]

Quote: Originally Posted by kiky Very interesting. Recently I have a new addition to my pond - she is called "Beni Kikokuryu". Into what category does she belong?

I think kikokuryu is a cross between a kumonryu and a kikisui.

-Dan

[dcny]

There's a whole thread on it, right here in koi-bito.

Origin of kikokuryu

[kiky]

Ah dcny, thank you very much for bringing that thread up. It was informative and answer my query beatifully. Thanks again.