Water in Niigata

[koinut]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Mike at Yume koi has done a wonderful job of created growth water similar to Japan. From this his published articles on RO water have evolved. I really encourage anyone who wants to add to their knowledge from what Mike has learned, needs to go to his world wide web site and read up on this topic. It may answer alot of questions and help you get a grasp on the subject

Thanks Dick. I do remember looking at some of his work, but totally forgot about it.

[junglegeorge12]

Mike Snaden's site is www.yumekoi.com He has a tremendous amount of knowledge about both water and conditions in Japan. I will try to dig up the old articles I learned about the cobalt and pigmentation from. It might take me a couple days, very good reading for those interested.

I went today to buy more bulk food from my supplier, read the contents on the bag, and sure enough the third to last ingredient is cobalt carbonate. I do not htink it is always last due to it not being important, but due to it's cost. It always winds up in the last few ingredients listed. The only exception I have ever found in food is a particular brand of parrot fish food that had it in the top 4 or 5 of ingredients. I cannot remember the name of the brand.

[koinut]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 Mike Snaden's site is www.yumekoi.com He has a tremendous amount of knowledge about both water and conditions in Japan. I will try to dig up the old articles I learned about the cobalt and pigmentation from. It might take me a couple days, very good reading for those interested. I went today to buy more bulk food from my supplier, read the contents on the bag, and sure enough the third to last ingredient is cobalt carbonate. I do not htink it is always last due to it not being important, but due to it's cost. It always winds up in the last few ingredients listed. The only exception I have ever found in food is a particular brand of parrot fish food that had it in the top 4 or 5 of ingredients. I cannot remember the name of the brand.

Thanks again George for the information. If you remember what the name of that food is, I would be interested. You wouldn't happen to know the amount of cobalt added in percentage, or the amount added into the water?

[junglegeorge12]

I have the feeling this topic in this thread is going to need to be revived again and again, as it is an important topic for serious hobbiests and breeders in the US. I will have to pass by the store I used to buy it from to find out the brand, it was a popular one. I probably won't pass that way until this weekend. But I will definitely check as one of my goals is to get some more.

As for the quantities, I do not remember how much is found in the natural spring and mountain water in Japan. I will need a few days to do some redigging to find all the old related articles. Alot of it was my own research to find sources of cobalt and erythrin for cheap. It is not just important in terms of how much, but what form determines much the koi can actually absorb in a beneficial way. Just tossing a rock in the water probably won't yeild much in terms of results. I do know when you see it in color enhancing food it is always listed as cobalt carbonate or cobalt sulfate or bicarbonate.

Give me a few days to dig up the old info. It also has just some very good general info about how koi digest and utilize different color enhancers, which really helps when deciding what and how to feed.

Now I do not go after color enhancer food, instead I use food that has a minimal amount of spirulina (usually yellow pigment), and feed shrimp in abundance for the erythrin (red pigment). Shrimp are able to get the cobalt sulfate, or erythrin out of their natural environment due to their diet, and metabolize it in a way the koi can digest and utilize. The articles explain better than I can how they do that and why.

[junglegeorge12]

By the way, a big part of the natural diet of wild carp is cray fish and the like (fresh water versions of shrimp, etc).

[koinut]

I'm sure this thread will answer a lot of questions to us in the West. I think it is a vital part of koi keeping to understand not only the how, but also the why. Thanks again, and I'll be waiting for the information that you retrieve regarding cobalt.

[Brutuscz]

OK..I've been reading this thread and trying to figure out ways to use this information. I often try to use information from my reef keeping hobby and incorporate that into koi keeping. In the reef hobby, some of us use something called a refugium. It is a small separate tank, connected to the main reef tank. It is often filled with mud and sand from a natural reef. Many of us place marine plants and macro algae in there as well. It is a wonderful place to grow copepods and small marine shrimp. This is also effective at releasing minerals and nutrients into the main tank. It is also where these small shrimp will reproduce, grow..and produce food for corals...such as zooplankton and larvae. Sooo.....Imagine a tank attached to your pond...filled with this soil from nigata. Also filled with crayfish and some water plants. It would release the cobalt and other minerals. In addition, if the crayfish reproduce, you can feed them to the koi. It would be a pond, freshwater, refugium. Where can we order this type of soil? I would try this in a 260gal fiberglass tank I have plumbed to my filters.

[junglegeorge12]

Hold there partner, let's take our time and ifnd out what is exactly the best way to go about it. I have some emails in to some experts and am waiting for a response, hopefully I will get one within a couple days. Also, some shrimp or crayfish type animals have large amouts of astaxanthin in them, or yellow pigment. We don't want that. We want to find sources of red.

for recreating the algae environment, is what mud ponds are for. Remember that when people say 'soil conditions in Japan' it is not just the pond bottom affected. In fact most sources say the ond bottoms in breeder's facilities are depleted. But the soil in the ground determines the source water content. So it is more the water content that creates the right environment. I am looking also into shrimp variety options that will contain large amounts of erythrin vs astaxanthin. Give me some time, and maybe someone else already has some knowledge or knows someone who can give some quality input into this area?

Here are a few links to some related articles, just the teasers really-I have not found the ones that really helped me earlier. I will keep looking but fell asleep last night and have been working hard all day on a new mud pond going in. The hyrdroponic plant thing I would not do. I have heard too many people say that to make a good plant environment means an adverse koi envrionment and vice versa. The shrimp hatchery, is a must do. Just have to find out which ones are best. I have contacted a cobalt sulfate and carbonate distributor and science group for a recommendation. They have information on their site about how much (ppm) should be in the water and soil for enhancing red pigment, and for plant and animla uptake, so they obviously know the subject. I hope they respond soon.

The miners actually follow what they call 'the trail of blood' to find cobalt. It is red and purple a crystal called erythrite (contains erythrin via a certain sulfate form of cobalt) to find the cobalt mineral deposits. Cobalt is actually a metal. According to one article it has the highest melting point of any other mineral. It is used to color ceramics, and to make glass tint. Let's see if we can gather enough info to put something really helpful together.

[junglegeorge12]

cobalt/erythrin links

http://www.koimag.com/features/artic...rs_of_koi.html

http://mineral.galleries.com/mineral...t/erythrit.htm

http://www.network54.com/Forum/10374...c+vs+ignorance

[koinut]

Very cool findings Junglegeorge. This thread has so far been very helpful in understanding my quest for the perfect water conditions. Please keep it coming. Hopefully some of the other knowledgable hobbyists or professionals can give us more insight as well.