Water in Niigata

[kingkong]

There are three main chemicals in color feeding red factor color. Canthaxanthin (Roxanthin Red), Beta-Carotene and Orange Carotenoids.
The only known animal requirement for cobalt that I can grab on to is a constituent of Vit B12. The presence of Cobalt provides some insurance in case a diet is lacking sufficient Vit B12. I do not see where Cobalt is a source of pigmentation but more of a trace mineral for animals that have an all-plant diets containing little or no Vit B12.

[junglegeorge12]

I see where you are coming from kong, but the facts I found out is that there are MANY sources of red pigment. Astaxanthin is red, as is Canthaxanthin, even red pepper is a source of pigment. The reading I did showed that the main ingredient of sulfate and carbonate forms of cobalt are what many algaes and other plants eat and synthesize into red pigments of various forms. I also found on looking deeper that in certain forms the koi can place the pigment from cobalt carbonate and sulfate directly into their chromatorphes. The stuff I read indicated that was a much more stable and permanent way to fill out the chromatorphes.

That is what the authors of those articles stated. They seemed qualified so I have no reason to dispute it. Alot of breeders use products that are derivatives of astaxanthin in both natural and synthetic forms. For instance salmon breeders use it because salmon in captivity do not eat the large amount of crustaceans that wild ones do, and they do not sell well when they look grey. The public has come to see salmon as a pink fish, so if they see a grey one in the store they think something is wrong with it, and won't buy it. So breeders use astaxanthin to redden it up.

There are alot of pigments out there, and sources of them. Cartenoids and canthaxathin and astaxanthin and xanthin(yellow) are what are found in plants. Plants synthesize cobalt sulfate and carbonate forms into those pigments. Cobalt in some forms is a deep blood red or purplish or pinkish. In some forms it is a dark bold blue.

Fish more easily utilize certain pigments in certain forms. Koi cannot synthesize color so they have to eat it, and then it gets placed in the chromatorphes. In the wild many of the algae and crustaceans (shrimp, cray fish, etc) that koi and carp munch in abundance and that fill out their red chromatorphes get their pigment from different forms of cobalt. So even though koi cannot synthesize cobalt metal into color, it can utilize the pigment that comes from cobalt via either crustaceans and algaes that have sythesized it for them, or directly via sulfates and carbonates in certain forms. That is what days and weeks of reading article after article on it revealed. There is even a site that tells you how much ppm of cobalt sulfate or carbonate needs to be in the soil for plants to draw enough of it up to synthesize it into red color pigment.

That is all aside from the fact it is a source of B-12.

[kingkong]

[quote=junglegeorge12]I see where you are coming from kong, but the facts I found out is that there are MANY sources of red pigment. Astaxanthin is red, as is Canthaxanthin, even red pepper is a source of pigment. The reading I did showed that the main ingredient of sulfate and carbonate forms of cobalt are what many algaes and other plants eat and synthesize into red pigments of various forms. I also found on looking deeper that in certain forms the koi can place the pigment from cobalt carbonate and sulfate directly into their chromatorphes.

........OK JG, Astaxanthin is a member of the big three, it is a member of Carotenoid family, found in plants, algae and crustatacea species.
Red pepper and paprika have tones of red pigment also from the Carotenoid family.
Alga has a presence of Antheraxanthin, a Carotenoid



[quote] There are alot of pigments out there, and sources of them. Cartenoids and canthaxathin and astaxanthin and xanthin(yellow) are what are found in plants. Plants synthesize cobalt sulfate and carbonate forms into those pigments. Cobalt in some forms is a deep blood red or purplish or pinkish. In some forms it is a dark bold blue.

.........Cobalt as a trace element, is actually a plant "bio-stimulant" similar to molybdenum required by nitrogen-fixing bacteria which improves growth and transpiration in a plant. When consumed by animals, it acts as an anti-oxidant immune fuel or tissue repair enhancer. I still can not see the color pigmentation evidence. Still looking

[monscine]

Hi JungleGeorge12, any clue about the amount of cobalt sulfate that could added to the pond, comparing to the pond capacity?

Thanks

[junglegeorge12]

Monscine-

I am still waiting for a response to that question from a science and cobalt product supply and research company. They make it for use in color enhancing fish foods and human health products. On their site is a explanation of it and how many ppm it takes for a plant to be able to take it up and turn it into red pigment. But that is for soil and not plants, not water and koi. So it looks like after thanksgiving at this point. Maybe even next week if they r chillin for the whole weekend.

[junglegeorge12]

Kong- I learned about that by reading articles about both erythrin pigment and cobalt things, such as erythrite and other subjects related to it. It was about a year ago and I cannot remmeber the sites etc, I will keep looking but really do not feel like surfing the whole net for it this week. Maybe next.

It is used for red and blue pigment in ceramics, glass, and paint so why is it hard to connect? You are what you eat. What color is erhtyrite? How it did get that
color apart from pigment being present in some form (erythrin)? I will try to find the link that connects it directly with an article written by a trustworthy biologist.

[koinut]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 Monscine- I am still waiting for a response to that question from a science and cobalt product supply and research company. They make it for use in color enhancing fish foods and human health products. On their site is a explanation of it and how many ppm it takes for a plant to be able to take it up and turn it into red pigment. But that is for soil and not plants, not water and koi. So it looks like after thanksgiving at this point. Maybe even next week if they r chillin for the whole weekend.

I was wondering if you got anymore information JG?

[James P]

Do be cautious on those words about color food. Best quality koi have yellow/ orange beni or pink/orange beni. You do NOT what to feed them color food! Modern koi can produce their own color from a balanced diet. Color enchancement, if given, is best given with fresh foods. Concentrated color food can be damaging to the color cell formation in young fish. This is strictly a coloring up technique for tateshita.

JR

[junglegeorge12]

Not yet koinut, I really have not had time to follow up, thx for the reminder, I will try to get to it this week. Today is a little hectic.

I understand what you are saying JR, but for adult fish and for certain situations that is not the whole picture. Here, due to intense sun, the color loss can be dramatic. So we have to keep supplying them with the things they need. The good news is, over generations they develop a very deep and tough color scheme due to it, adaptation. The damage you are worried about is actually a good reason to go the cobalt route, because the koi will not adapt more than they need. With already completely synhtesized color enhancers in food, they will. The result is stunning color with no risk of damage. I have never heard too much could actually damage the cell, just affect the edges of the patterns. Maybe you could tell me more about that.

Also, yellow orange and red orange are taste, I prefer red orange, amd I think most GCs are lipstick and cherry tomatoe reds. I know the orange with more yellow is supposed to be more stable, but alot of it is not about just stability, but what we fill out the color cells with. Truth is yellow color pigments are cheaper, the chromatorphes of yellow and red mixed together give you orange. The combination of which ones there are more of and how deep they run and what we fill them out with via diet and water conditions determines tint and stability to a large degree.

I notice the flag and the sports emblems Japan's Olympics teams use are not yellow/orange tancho spots, but red. I was brought up to understand the red was very important and significant in their culture. At least that's what grandpa told us, who was over there for a good while during and after WW2. Perhaps you could tell me more than grandpa knew.

[koinut]

Quote: Originally Posted by James P Do be cautious on those words about color food. Best quality koi have yellow/ orange beni or pink/orange beni. You do NOT what to feed them color food! Modern koi can produce their own color from a balanced diet. Color enchancement, if given, is best given with fresh foods. Concentrated color food can be damaging to the color cell formation in young fish. This is strictly a coloring up technique for tateshita. JR

Thanks JR for the insight. Your words are always words of wisdom and is never taken for granted. What would you say is a good test kit for GH. I found that there are two measurements. One is in PPM and the other in degrees?