Dropsy and Motile Aeromanas

[koifishgirl]

Can someone please tell me if I have this right. My uderstanding that Motile Aeromonas is a bacteris found in water that will cause Dropsy. I also understand that Dropsy can be caused by no other than kidney and heart failure and that the bacterial Dropsy can spread to other koi if the bacteria is not got under control. So two different types of Dropsy, one caused by bacteria or Motile Aeromonas or just plain kidney or heart faliure. Im I right?


Judy

[schildkoi]

Dropsy is nothing more than the visible signs caused by swelling within the body...fluid retention. The fluid retention can be caused by a number of factors bvut without those factor(s) being addressed quickly, it will lead to a systemic infection and the death of the Koi.

The fluid retention in and of itself can be caused by bacteria already setting in and effecting the kidneys or other internal organs and thus effecting the osmotic balance of the Koi (ability to displace body fluids). The first syptom is typically the bulging of an eye (or possibly both eyes). Its at this stage that increasing the salt level in the pond (after ruling out parasites through scrape and scope) by .3%, the Koi's own immune system may be able to repel any bacteria that is invading. If the eye does not pull back in within 3-5 days, immediate antibiotic injections should be started. Typically, its at this point in time that the obvious signs of "Dropsy" begin to appear, swollen fluid pockets under the scales which make the scales "protrude". This is when it gets "delicate". At this stage, typically, the systemic infection has set in an now kidney and liver function is affected. Although antibiotics are a "must" at this point, antibiotics are also tough on the kidneys and liver, an area already adversly effected. Over dosing with antibiotics WILL have an adverse effect so special care must be given in correct doasges...a dosage that can still even have an adverse effect, To help the Koi displace the fluids, each of the fluid pockets should be "lanced" with a sterile scaple or even exacto knife (with the Koi knocked out of course). ThenThe hand should be placed over the top of the Koi with fingers on one side and thumb on the other. Firmly run the hand down the Koi from front to back and the fluids will be displaced through the previously slit skin areas between the scales. Some of this fluid may actually "shoot" out. This process should be done at the time of each inbjection and as needed (when pockets appear) afterwards until healed.

"Dropsy" was once thought of as "incurable". The process outlined above, when caught early enough has about a 60-75% chance of success.

Steve

[KoiCop]

since the liver and kidneys are already adversely effected, would you shy away from Azactam & Amikacin? Maybe go with Baytril or Nuflor, instead? Don

[koifishgirl]

Don ,

I dont have a sick koi I would just like to make sure that I understand motile aeromomas correctly and Dropsy I realize that aeromonas is in water and that is what make koi sick but does this cause dropsy and can dropsy be just gentic defect and in time kills the koi?

[KoiCop]

I'm no Koi Health Advisor (KHA), but it's my understanding that normal (healthy and unstressed) koi naturally co-exist with all sorts of harmful bacteria (such as aeromonas) and parasites. The problem occurs when the koi becomes sick/injured/stressed to such a degree that the slime coat can no longer deal with the opportunistic attacks of bacteria/parasites.

Dropsy is not a disease, per se; it is a symptom. As Steve said, "Dropsy is nothing more than the visible signs caused by swelling within the body...fluid retention. The fluid retention can be caused by a number of factors but without those factor(s) being addressed quickly, it will lead to a systemic infection and the death of the Koi."

[Brutuscz]

I had a problem with dropsy and bacterial infections this year. This ginrin sanke had a major problem. He pulled through and looks great now. I separated him to a hospital tank. I treated him with a product called fungus cure (also treats bacterial indections and dropsy). I treated the fish with jungle labs medicated, anti bacterial koi food. It took 4-6 weeks for a full recovery. I also found the source of the bad bacteria. I re-lined my pond this year. I had a spare 10'X10' piece of liner. I layed this on the bottom of the pond (I re-lined because a tree branch fell in the pond and tore it in 3 places, I hoped the extra liner on top would protect it from happening again). Well, My koi were going under the liner and eating "stuff". When I pulled this liner out...there was a cloud of brown junk!!! I lost many fish to this stupid error...they all suffered from bloating, fin rot, mouth rot, ulcers...it was terrible. I hope by explaining my stupid error, no one will do the same thing.

[REC]

We see alot of dropsy cases on KoiVet and over the years I have done a lot of work with dropsied fish including more cultures and post-morts than I care to count. How many people do you know that "collect" sick fish?? I am one of them. Awhile back we had a thread on KoiVet stating that yogurt was used to cure dropsy in koi. Not being very delicate about such things, I offered a response about yogurt and dropsy in general. Let me share this with you as it has some additional information about dropsy, its causes and effects.

A post from KoiVet:

Yogurt??? We can't be serious, folks. What is the yogurt combating? Let's take yet another look at dropsy... First, dropsy is not a disease, it is a syndrome or a set of symptoms, such as pineconing, bloat, pop-eye, etc. There are many things that can cause dropsy symptoms to develop, such as bacterial and viral infections of the organs (most likely the kidneys and/or liver), parasitic infestations of the organs, and even bad water conditions or rapidly changing environmental conditions. To understand dropsy, one needs to study osmotic processes in the fish and how fluids are moved in and around the fish's body. What one will see is the impact of chloride on the physiology of the fish and how an imbalance in chloride processing can cause dropsy symptoms to develop.



Typically when we discuss dropsy cases, we do not offer much in the way of hope for the fish's survival and every now and then we are wrong and a fish pulls through it. But that is not very often. And with dropsy cases, it is easy to be wrong because the average ponder has no way of knowing what is causing the dropsy symptoms. To do this, a sample of the exudates (body fluid) needs to be drawn and cultured. This might tell us if the cause is bacterial or viral, even parasitic if we get lucky. But doing such a test is difficult and time consuming.



But there are other signs that help us diagnose the proximate cause of dropsy such as pale gills. For every dropsy case, examination of the gills is probably THE most important diagnostic tool we have. Why? Because the gills tell us the condition of the blood and that tells us the condition of the key organs, to say nothing about the overall health of the fish. Pale gills tells us the fish is anemic and most likely the kidneys and/or liver are affected. Post-mortem exam has proved this out every single time. So, once pale gills are spotted and with the bloating of the fish, we have two key pieces of the diagnostic puzzle: compromised organs and poor blood condition.



But, as we have discussed on numerous occasions on Koivet, there are some things we can do to maybe improve the situation:



1. Salt baths are recommended because we know that the osmotic process failures can be caused by poor chloride processing in the fish. It is chloride that moves the fluid out of the kidneys and into waste. When this function is interrupted, the fluid is pushed out of the organs as exudates and fills the body cavity. So, as a first step in dealing with dropsy, we recommend a salt bath at a level determined by the condition of the fish. If the fish is weak and responds poorly to handling, start the salt bath using pond water at .3% (one tablespoon of salt per gallon of water) for no more than 30 minutes. If the fish is strong and responsive, use a salt level of .6% for 30 minutes. Once in the bath, if the fish reacts poorly and rolls over, remove him immediately and place him back in the pond to recover. For a weaker fish, if he reacts fine to the .3% bath, do the bath again in 48 hours at .4 or .5%. Remember that all of this handling is causing more stress and not helping an already weakened fish. If the fish is responsive to the salt bath, we should see the swelling reduce within 24-48 hours.



2. Warm salty water is recommended for long term care of a dropsied fish. The ideal temperature range is 78-82 degree F as this equates to the peak performance levels of immune system and what we are really trying to do is get the fish to heal itself. The salt level should be .3%, no higher. The increased salt level puts more chloride ions in the water and this helps the fish process fluids more easily.



3. Antibiotics. For most ponders, medicated food is the most practical source of antibiotics for fish. But this assumes that the fish is eating. If the fish is not eating, then some in-water anti-biotics such as oxilium, might be of help. Obviously the fish has to take up the meds from the water and not all meds are easily absorbed. For some fish that are not eating, forced feeding using a feeding tube may be necessary just to get the meds into them. And then there are the injectables. A word of strong caution here about injectables and dropsy. Keep in mind that we always suspect some level of organ compromise with dropsy and so there is a right and wrong choice of injectable meds for treating dropsy. Baytril is a good choice, amikacin is not. Amikacin is both oto-toxic and nephro-toxic. Oto-toxic means it adversely affects the balance system and nephro-toxic means it adversely affects the kidneys. Think about this, folks.. if we suspect damage to the kidneys, why would we inject a med that may compound the problem?? My suggestion is that if you are going to inject, stick with Baytril every time.



4. Tri-Cide Neo dips have the ability to affect internal bacteria problems and makes an excellent choice when dealing with suspected and diagnosed internal bacterial infections, including septicemia.



Quite honestly, despite all of the anecdotal evidence of "cured" dropsy patients, anytime we see a fish exhibiting dropsy symptoms, we have to know that that fish is in a dire condition. And this brings me to point of trying to understand the use of yogurt in treating dropsy. The hardest thing that I am trying to grasp is why inject a foreign substance, loaded with bacteria, into a fish with an already compromised immune system? While I do not doubt zenpond's results that the fish is still alive, I have to state that the technique of using yogurt lacks medical merit and really should not be tried by anyone. I don't want zenpond to take offense to this and actually I am glad he posted this as we can openly discuss these types of issues because we all know that there are SO MANY treatments for all kinds of ailments available on the internet (as we have seen with epsom salts for dropsy) that we need to objectively sort all of this out. This is what Koivet does better than any other fish-related site on the internet.



So, if anyone has some medical evidence of the effect of yogurt on dropsy, the syndrome, please post it here.

REC

[jnorth]

Hi REC! I thought you might find this thread seeing how dropsy is one of your favorite subjects .

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by REC We see alot of dropsy cases on KoiVet and over the years I have done a lot of work with dropsied fish including more cultures and post-morts than I care to count. How many people do you know that "collect" sick fish?? I am one of them. Awhile back we had a thread on KoiVet stating that yogurt was used to cure dropsy in koi. Not being very delicate about such things, I offered a response about yogurt and dropsy in general. Let me share this with you as it has some additional information about dropsy, its causes and effects. ... So, if anyone has some medical evidence of the effect of yogurt on dropsy, the syndrome, please post it here. REC

Thanks much for the excellent write-up. Your website has proven quite valuable to me in the past so this just adds to the list.
I don't have any anecdotes about miraculous cures from yogurt, but I do have a question about it as a food suppliment.
(I apologize in advance for going off topic, but I think KFG's original question has been wonderfully addressed in several posts )
I've read on another forum about the health benefits of lactobaccillus for koi and a few who have talked about using yogurt as a base for blending paste foods. Since yogurt is commonly used as a digestive aid for people I am curious if it would likewise be effective and beneficial to koi.