Ideal winter low temps, feeding/winter fast etc?

[Carloskoi]

is there an ideal winter low temp to strive for if you could control the temp?

i know people say you shouldn't feed your fish for a few weeks in the winter no matter what your winter low. why?

my winter low last year was 59. i do have a heater that i did not use last winter to see what the temps were.

i know part of the reason people say is so the females reabsorb eggs. why is that a good thing? it seems that is just a response to starvation and the starving males don't have eggs to resorb. if i have males and females in my pond, and i do, like most of us, won't they spawn if they are healthy and well fed and isn't that a good thing. as long as they eat all the eggs of course, i don't want any little shitagoi swimming around in the pond.

do wild carp in their indiginous steams fast for a few weeks? or do they just eat less and maybe a different diet? what is the diet of carp anyway?

i was at a koi club party last night and the topic turned to fasting. no one could give me a real good reason except that i didn't want food rotting in their gut. our temps don't get that low. someone else said feeding will lead to ulcers but i never got a mechanism for why that would be so. maybe poor filter leading to increased aeromonas bacterial counts in the water.

anyway, main questions are why fast if temps are higher and what is the IDEAL winter low?

Carl

[MCA]

As I remember a conversation with JR on this last year, the target would be to have the pond ease down to 50 for two weeks of total fast. Then a very slow warm up (like 1-2F per week) with sporadic feeding using wheatgerm until the pond hits ~60 and then start slowing mixing in some other food.

But....I have slept since then. I am buildng the annual winter pond cover today. Thank God for 2x4s and 6 mil plastic!!!

[dick benbow]

Hey carl...good questions....

fasting koi is an effort to duplicate the natural conditions from which they are subject to. in a lake of any depth where temp is not subject to turn over by a pond pump, fish will head for the depths to a temperature they can be comfortable at. It amounts to about a foot a degree. So if the surface is 33 f then at 25 feet they are comfortable at 55 F. Their metabolism is controled by temperature...that's why ice fisherman chop thru feet of ice and still find hungry fish!

Vegetable protein is easier to digest over animal protein hence the popularity among koi keepers in lower temps to feed wheatgerm over white fish meal.

Whether you subscribe to the theory that the koi should be subjected to a cold period, mother nature to insure the procreation of the species has the females putting protein into egg production in advance of spring spawning.
Therefore this means that if you heat and feed that's what they're doing with it as opposed to putting on length. If you don't have a pond spawn every coupla years and the eggs are not re-absorbed then you can have some losses thru a condition known as being egg bound. Since the pond population
can be injured in a spawn most don't care to have one in an uncontrolled environment. So many will deliberately spawn their show females....carefully under controlled environment and limited males.

Toshio sakai of matsunosuke fame confided to me many years ago that it was important to hold the females at 52 F and allow them to experience winter while not feeding for several months. I have followed his regiment for a coupla decades now.

My own wisdom is you can feed tosai year round, most nissai as well as all the protein is going into growth length as sexual maturity is not a concern. I felt that if top breeders had their valued breeders and tategoi go thru winter
( and it would be just as easy if not easier to heat and feed) to take the path of more resistance..there has to be a purpose for it. My hosokai tosai are at 55 F because they're in with the girls and while I believe it may slow them down in growth compared with others fed the next two years I believe over their live time they will equal out.

in ending let me say that i have never lost a female to being egg bound. I can name names of thos who had. Also the color went to #$%^&*! and the body shape looked something akin to a sumo wrestler after years of mid 70's F round the clock...in short I endorse it as a logical path to take.

[Carloskoi]

Dick:

thank you for your thoughful reply.

side note, i too love Asagi's

anyway, so fall feeding is over in most places, as you say, the females are taking the protein to make eggs. you said they put the protein into egg production but then you fast them and there is not protein to make eggs or growth.

so the low 50's is the ideal temp for a few weeks?

i too know how violent koi sex can be. i had one fish thrown out of the pond over a 10" high, foot wide retaining wall last season. a 28" male Sanke damaged his dorsal fin so severly he got depticemia and died within two days. also multiple other lesions on other fish, missing scales etc. i have made a few changes to the pond smoothing rough edges and such so hopefully it will be a bit more peaceful. i have also gotten rid of a few males. the ratio is better now.

if your fish are healthy and well fed shouldn't they spawn every year?

i know a koi keeper here who doesn't feed much, has some 6-7 year old fish that have never spawned. they don't look real skinny but they are not that big either, but still 18-22 inches.

Carl

[JohnBender]

You got ask yourself why are you fasting your fish? In California the weather will permit you to feed your fish throughout the year. You can feed your fish once a week if you wanted just to keep them active.

[Carloskoi]

i haven't fasted my fish yet but all the experts say i should. why, if my water temps permit feeding? do wild carp eat all year or do they fast?


Carl

[dick benbow]

sometimes getting info over the boards can be conflicting or leaving one up in the air as to what to do. Why not flip a coin to feed or not to feed and base your own theory on what you learn and works for you? you can always change you mind based on what you learn. I think what makes the most sense is to have someone you know who is sucessful in the hobby and lives realitively close to you and follow their lead.

As I indicated in my earlier post wild fish in natural settings head for the most comfortable temp and oxygen level they can find and eat what they can find. if thier lake is a shallow one and temps get down low, believe me they fast!
if this wasn't so our koi kichi's up north who ice fish would have to give up the hobby! (LOL) most fisherman know in the fall that the fish sense the coming winter and go on a feeding binge to store up for the winter. many outdoorsman end up trying to find enough time to fish or hunt as both get good in the fall season.
deer get forced down from the mountain because the temps are cold and the snows are covering up food sources. we should all take a lesson from the bears who store up all year then live off the fat of the land in hibernation!


good luck carl

[Carloskoi]

thanks Dick- i was talking to Burt Balou, Bob and Joan Finnegan and others last night at a party about this topic. they all said fast. i will do it to but like to know why it is recommended. i wouldn't mind saving some $$$ on food.

too bad i can't turn off the pumps and save some money there also. it would make my wife even happier. she was just complaining about the $500 a month electric bill.

i didn't tell her how much i spent on those three new fish.

Carl

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Carloskoi thanks Dick- i was talking to Burt Balou, Bob and Joan Finnegan and others last night at a party about this topic. they all said fast. i will do it to but like to know why it is recommended. i wouldn't mind saving some $$$ on food. too bad i can't turn off the pumps and save some money there also. it would make my wife even happier. she was just complaining about the $500 a month electric bill. i didn't tell her how much i spent on those three new fish. Carl

Pretty much the idea is to "season" the fish. The fish wont die if you fast them. The theory here is to have the fish use all it's reserve fat through the winter, the conformation can get better during the growing season next year. This practice was made popular by Minoru Mano "Dainichi".

Thing is as hobbyist we feed heavily during the summer months and the fish carries all that fat it consumed during summer into winter. Me personally I still feed once aday or basis my feeding on how active my fish are. There are days I feed once and there are days I dont feed at all.

[KoiCop]

the three you mentioned (Burt, Bob & Joan) constitute an impressive trinity of SoCal koi cognoscente! Best listen to 'em.

You also might be interested in a current thread on NI's KoiMag.com:

Re: No chance...he's far more koi knowledgeable than all of us together - James P 12/5/2005, 12:52 am

It's located at:
http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/

wherein JR and Lee Aronfield bat that question around with great gusto.

Personally, I'm with Antonio. I think that with our climate it's OK to feed several times a week, except during the coldest part of the winter -- and especially so when tosai are in the pond.