buying a prize

[James P]

OK Newt, I think its best you hightail it now as well. JR

[James P]

Ok, so now that the Mayor, who doesn’t own koi, has left the building, onto the Deadwood guy who does own koi ( sorta koi anyway? ) Greg B!

Greg, you said something that I wanted to address-

"Do Koi shows promote Koi Keeping? Yes, Im sure they do. Would people still keep koi without koi shows. Yes, Im sure they would"

Yep, they might. But they would all be more Bickal-like koi then nishikigoi. Make NO mistake about it. IF nishikigoi were not shown in competition, there would be no $50,000 fish. In fact, without the show there would be no judging organizations and by extension, no universal standards. Koi would be bred simply by what sold in the open market. Interesting crosses would likely prevail but the bottom would drop out of pricing and nishikigoi would be just another pond fish. The serious breeders would be rudderless. These guys have huge overhead and koi at $200 a piece will not pay the rent. Mass produces would be the only ones to survive. 'Koi by the pound' types.

So you all that feel the show world, koi standards and organized koi is a quirky high end endeavor that in no way touches ‘ your world’ need to NOT bite the hand that feeds you- feeds you good koi that is. Without the show, we would all have low grade colorful ‘guess-a-goi’ at $5.00 a pound.

[kingkong]

Quote: Originally Posted by gregbickal Well I for one am not hear to stir the pot, and I do own koi, and I am who I say I am. To quote a phrase actors use "what is my motivation?". I want to promote the hobby of Koi Keeping. Do Koi shows promote Koi Keeping? Yes, Im sure they do. Would people still keep koi without koi shows. Yes, Im sure they would. My main means of promoting koi keeping right now is hosting vistors to my pond. On the last pond tour, I had over 1000 people at my pond in a two day period. We have been thinking about creating an Iowa Koi show (to increase promotion). The closest show is 4 hours away in Chicago. However as I get to learn more about how koi shows operate, my motivation for wanting to do so deminishes quickly. Its a lot of hard work and money to put on a show. Your average public cant tell the difference between a high priced koi and a mutt, they just say "wow, big fish". Plenty of the public gets to see my koi right in my own pond, and since mine wont be the best at the show, why bring them? If the show is just put on give an award the person with the most money, then why would I want to volunteer to help put on a show? If I want to see high quality koi, why not just go to Japan. The ones I have seen my local koi shows pale in comparision to what you can see by visiting just one Japansese Breeder. I am the type of person you want to have helping put on a show. I think my record as a hard worker can vouch for that. But I am not going to put in my hard work to an institution that has become perverted to the all mighty dollar and puffing up the egos of those with the most $$$ just so they can have bragging rights.

You have the perfect opportunity to try a prototype show that would encourage the entry of exibitors. Have a judged show on the point system. No queen of the day or grand champ awards. Each koi will be critiqued for standards and its own merits. Everyone can exibit, hobbyist, breeder and dealer . If I never saw John Naka's bonsai at a show, I would have never been hooked by bonsai. Let the public see and enjoy the koi as they will, learn the rules if they like but remove the who has the best koi talk. They are all beautiful, some just more than others, the viewers can see that.

[gregbickal]

Quote: Yep, they might. But they would all be more Bickal-like koi then nishikigoi. Make NO mistake about it. IF nishikigoi were not shown in competition, there would be no $50,000 fish. In fact, without the show there would be no judging organizations and by extension, no universal standards. Koi would be bred simply by what sold in the open market. Interesting crosses would likely prevail but the bottom would drop out of pricing and nishikigoi would be just another pond fish

I agree completely with your statement. However, if the grass on the other side of the road is not greener, there is no reason to cross the road.....

I was content with my Bickalgoi. It was only after I posted pictures of my koi on-line years ago and the big city folks ridiculed me as to what crap they were, that I started trying for something better. I want to be respected, not a laughing stock..... See the delima

[keokoi]

JR, no nishikigoi???? I would get back into reef tanks and cichlids..

Bickel, I gotta hand it to you. you are known worldwide for for spotted koi. Yo have your own bloodline called bickelgoi. Its not a slam but kinda cool in its own way..


I can't help but read over this thread. I see both sides where they come from. But how many of us are really going for the title GC anyhow? I will go ahead and take myself out of that list...

Just curious

Joe

[James P]

Right! I also wanted to bring Newtster along a little further before I gave out the real world remedy to the problem some of you perceive here.

As you might image, others in the actual show planning world, have wrestled with this age old concern of ringers vs. the little guy’s koi for many years now. Legislating this is NOT a good idea in my opinion. Educating those who object is probably energy better spent. As it turns out, this all comes down to an over focus or over emphasis on the 'people competition' side of things.

So to try and education the concerned towards the idea of this being about the fish themselves and not about them as exhibitors is usually a wiser road and a better way to look at the koi show as an educational experience.

OK so here is how the big boys handle this problem- In any annual show, there is a winner. It becomes a ‘known’ and honored fish. It's likeness can even be used on the following years show pin. It's picture is sent to the magazines and the judges critique it on the day and also at a special club meeting held over the winter. The fish has its day in the sun and its year of fame. BUT then it is retired! Every fish that wins GC is automatically retired from the show ring- never to return. This works to please the envious or those that feel they knock themselves out and are then beaten every year by ‘That Damned Fish"! On the other hand, the wealthy competitor could go broke buying a 40-60K fish every 365 days so that drive is curbed as well.

I personally DON’T like this system because part of the education for all is to learn how and when koi decline in beauty. And also how good a keeper’s skills are to KEEP a koi from declining quickly. Most hobbyists are three to five years into the hobby and they do not think in terms of koi decline. Basically they are in the ‘preserve and improve’ phase of the hobby. And based on what people are willing to pay for koi, many obviously do not yet see koi as the opened bottle of fine wine or the cut flower and have no idea of this process that follows. So allowing GCs to come back is a shocking, but valuable learning experience. And Ironically, the person who can keep ‘a ringer’ in top shape, color and luster is the VERY BEST koi keeper of all. Keeping young koi in peak condition is quite easy in comparison. That is why Newt and ‘the mullet’ made me smile.

JR

[keokoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by James P Right! So allowing GCs to come back is s shocking but valuable learning experience. And Ironically, the person who can keep ‘a ringer’ in top shape, color and luster is the VERY BEST koi keeper of all. Keeping young koi in peak condition is quite easy in comparison. That is why Newt and ‘the mullet’ made me smile. JR

JR,

Do you know of any GC, that have been showed more than once, and if so what was the condition of the fish, a year or more later? I think I agree with you that hobbyist don't realize that these fish all decline, and that it would be a valuable learning experience, for all to see the condition of a fish a year or 2 years down the road.

Joe

[James P]

Yes, I'm sure I could think of many ---

Art Lembke is a master koli keeper. He has shown the big utsuri many times over the years. She has won several GCs in her day. She is older now but she came out for her last campaign this past Koi America and looked good but definitely NOT the gal she was in 1996 when she was--- HOT!!! Still, an incredible run! Hat's off to you Art!

Duke showed a beautiful jumbo and a showa for a few years in a row down in SoCal ZNA. Those fish were always crowd pleasers but I noticed they had both slipped over the years.

I have also seen fish crash and burn in one year in many parts of the country. It would be rude to name exhibitors and places. But they should not feel too bad reading this as it is VERY VERY hard to be able to do what Art and a few others can do. You need a top facility, knowledge, experience, the right feeding technique, a 'wet thumb' and LUCK! But then again, some one said " the more I practice, the luckier I get"!

[Newt]

Quote: Originally Posted by James P Right! I also wanted to bring Newtster along a little further before I gave out the real world remedy to the problem some of you perceive here. ...And also how good a keeper’s skills are to KEEP a koi from declining quickly... ...And Ironically, the person who can keep ‘a ringer’ in top shape, color and luster is the VERY BEST koi keeper of all. JR

Come on, James...bring me a 'little further along.' You know me better than to think I'd ever 'take my ball and go home.' I just tire easily of hearing the same thing.

I so much wish to be one of the 'big boys,' and am contacting Greg to buy a tategoi from him for him to keep and polish for me.

Tell me what you are saying here now, my friend. Or better yet, answer my question...who would you respect more, all things being equal...someone who raised/kept a koi in his system and won a major GC award, or someone who had it shipped in the day of the contest? And if it's about the fish, why the big hoopla of a trophy for the 'buyer?'

Game for more punishment here.

Newt

[James P]

Newt, my brother! You came back!

Newt, you and I are students of human nature. And I consider you as worldly as I am.

So you'll appreciate what I'm about to say ---

Like many things in life, the essence of things is really what's in a person's heart. At any show banquet you go to in the country you will see, fierce competitors, people just having fun, people sharing their pets with people and showing the pride of a proud parent, egotists, ‘mother natures’------ in a word- the ‘works’.

But they are all linked by a fascination for these amazing fish.

I tried to patiently repeat and repeat again, the goals of a koi show so that the words might be considered. But competition is a powerful drug and the other words just don’t hold weight for many guys when they see the word, no-- smell, competition. But for the old dogs like me and those who have done the showing and been in the thick of the competition, the other ‘words’, over time, start to mean more. Education and comradery ( as in Websters- to share one’s activities or a felloe member of an organization). This is the wisdom and perspective of those that created the concept of THE koi show in Japan ( ZNA)

It is easy for internet types to miss the fact that a koi show is put on by a koi club. These are people who know one another and invite guests from outside their club to celebrate and compete with their fish. The competition is to keep in fun and interesting. A health outlet. But it must always have the right backdrop to it and kept in perspective by the show founders and operators.

Education first. Public awareness second, The competition third.

The reason for the big trophy is to honor the fish, thank the owner for sharing that fish and to promote the breeder and the hobby. The big trophy of course, symbolizes the acknowledgment of the very best fish in that show. I’m not sure if you have ever attended a ZNA banquet but the judge will spend considerable time on WHY the fish won. This is once again the educational component of the show.

Every koi is unique, people should be to.



JR