buying a prize

[junglegeorge12]

I personally think that dynamic allows folks who love the hobby to find a way to do it full time while others who like it also who may not be able or want to do it full time to truly both enjoy it together.

a passionate person who learns, buys wisely, and does well can ALSO do everything a wealthy person is paying someone else to do. So what is the issue? Big shows draw out large levels of competition. Some are so dedicated they do it all day every day and are called 'professionals'. Others, who can do it just as well if they apply themselves, work jobs and play and compete to. So whether it is a full time or working person raising the koi, it still has to be hand raised and cared for. Some may prefer to pay a pro to do that. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is rather smart if you have money and would rather spend your time doing funner things!!! Like island hopping, and know those jewels are getting the tlc they need to reach their potential.

There are lots of back room koi that could take gc's that are hidden away like secrets and treasured. Some lucky guy might stumble on one or two of them. Some lucky guys might have some and not tell anyone cuz they like it like that. Kind of like searching the world for the perfect wave, folks who love it and can spend lots of time and money looking and searching and calling and doing all they can to find that perfect jewel. Nothing wrong with that. When they find it they want it to come to the show looking as good as possible....

[Brutuscz]

I would certainly get more satisfaction raising a young koi to be a GC. It takes skill and dedication to accomplish that. Where is the skill walking into sakai hiroshima and whipping out a checkbook..saying..."give me a winner guys!!". There is nothing morally wrong with it...but where is the enjoyment that comes with this type of victory? There is nothing to be proud of because you, personally, did not accomplish anything. Bill Gates could do this and whip all our butts...but it doesn't make him a koi keeper!!

[keokoi]

I kind of have a concept when I go to a show.

Appreciate and learn off of the koi. Forget about the owner. Some of us don't even know the owner so why does it matter who brought it or where it was housed at. I appreciate that it is there for me to enjoy study and learn from it.

To see a big fish and know what it has gone through to even get to that size is incredible in its own right. I think about from when it was a baby and learn the road it has traveled pretty much unscathed is amazing.

Let's appreciate the koi and forget about the owner.

I picked up an old 1993 Nichrin magazine the other day. I was reading about the ZNA SoCal show I believe the Opening speech by the show chairman was

Koi not only look beuatiful, they also have a beautiful character, they never fight among themselves. Their owners on the other hand do occasionally have their disputes; Perhaps we should follow the example of our koi.


JMO

Joe

[Valarc]

To me, a "win" at a koi show is just an enticement to get people to bring out their koi. IMHO the real value of a koi show is exposing people to high quality fish, especially people who have only ever seen petsmart POSes before. If someone buys an extremely high end fish and brings it to a show and it wins a big award, maybe that person doesn't earn accolades for raising that fish - BUT they deserve LOTS of praise for risking all the money they spent on that koi, just to bring it out and share it with everyone. Whether they win a $6 trophy or not is immaterial to me, because if that trophy gives them enough excitement to bring out that fish - I'd just be happy to get a chance to appreciate that fish in person.

[junglegeorge12]

so what you are saying is that sakai will give ME his best fish if i write him a big enough check, instead of his old buddy down the counter? I doubt it. Also, what if fred is at momo's and sam is at isa'a and jeff is at jimbei's and jill at dianichi's, they all win???? I doubt it. They have to seek, search, hunt, passionately pursue then MAYBE they get a winner.

But then this guy from podunk hillbillyville who bred his own from some tiny fry with good bloodlines he stole from an auction for $8.99 in 1998 may just waltz in and win. He may never post in chat forums, and not even know how to use a computer, and b sitting on treasures with a big grin on his face while all his friends laugh at him when he tells them his fish are worth more than their cars.

[Gene]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 But then this guy from podunk hillbillyville who bred his own from some tiny fry with good bloodlines he stole from an auction for $8.99 in 1998 may just waltz in and win. He may never post in chat forums, and not even know how to use a computer, and b sitting on treasures with a big grin on his face while all his friends laugh at him when he tells them his fish are worth more than their cars.

: I hope I'm there when he wins! : :

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 so what you are saying is that sakai will give ME his best fish if i write him a big enough check, instead of his old buddy down the counter? I doubt it. Also, what if fred is at momo's and sam is at isa'a and jeff is at jimbei's and jill at dianichi's, they all win???? I doubt it. They have to seek, search, hunt, passionately pursue then MAYBE they get a winner. But then this guy from podunk hillbillyville who bred his own from some tiny fry with good bloodlines he stole from an auction for $8.99 in 1998 may just waltz in and win. He may never post in chat forums, and not even know how to use a computer, and b sitting on treasures with a big grin on his face while all his friends laugh at him when he tells them his fish are worth more than their cars.

I'm saying ALL things have a price..especially in a retail business such as koi. Bill gates can write a big enough check to buy the whole farm!!! I realize what he buys may not win GC at the all japan show...but I'm sure he could find something to win on this side of the pond.

[koiczar]

I used to agree with "joe" totally. Several years ago I used to fight for having a show where all the fish entered must be in the person's own pond for at least 1 year. That way it would, from a purist's standpoint, decide who has the best keeping skills. You can buy a fish for 5-6 figures, but can you keep it looking polished or will it go downhill. It's all up to you. Now, and forever, that is my definition of a dedicated hobbyist.

There is no right answer to this question Joe, so you can see there are different opinions, which I have heard for years, and you can argue til you're blue in the face. What it boils down to is that it just doesn't matter who brings the girl to the dance, it's if she is made "prom queen" for the day.

I know a hobbyist here in the bay area of California. He, that I know of recently, has not purchased any new fish. However, having said that, he has brought them out to dealer's locations for exhibition only, just to show hobbyists what you can achieve. All his fish are over 28-30 inches. I have seen several of these fish on more than two occasions over a three year span. His ability to maintain a very high level of quality is amazing. This person, in my opinion is a "true hobbyist" in every sense of the word. Not only is he a highly respected hobbyist, he is also highly respected as a person. He has taken several GC trophies home including the ZNA Bay Area Show, The ZNA Gardena show just to name a couple. He will be coming out of retirement as I will for the All Bay Area Koi Show in April. You don't want to miss seeing the fish he brings. It will be truly awe inspiring. As for me, I can only hope! The competition is truly going to be of the highest caliber. You don't want to miss this one.

Mike

[hwong]

Joe,
If we are looking to crown the guy 'THE BEST KOIKEEPER", then it will be unacceptable. However if as in all koi shows, we are bestowing the title to the best koi and in this case, we shud thank the chap who gave us the opportunity to see such a high quality koi. On this score, I am in complete agreement with Valarc
"If someone buys an extremely high end fish and brings it to a show and it wins a big award, maybe that person doesn't earn accolades for raising that fish - BUT they deserve LOTS of praise for risking all the money they spent on that koi, just to bring it out and share it with everyone. "

There are many koi keepers who are closet hobbyist and will not show their kois to anyone except their close friends. Heck their kois may well beat the GC but we will never know nor get to see them .

About writing a cheque to Sakai and get a GC. " This is what Kentaro says" Sigh...Everyone of my top customer want to win the GC. I wish I can do that."

[James P]

Hwong, that is a good and wise point. A koi show is many things- a classroom for learning, a competition, an exhibition for public awareness and a fraternal event where fellow koi kichi meet once a year to discuss their charges with one another.

In the case of those dwelling on care as a prime criteria for credibility-- This is one dimension of the show- as a learning experience and something to be discussed among friends who know the fish. I can tell you, as a ZNA judge ( where these kinda things do count), that we acknowledge fish with high luster and high health. It is not a direct score however but it is something that goes into every great show fish and can certainly be a ‘tie breaker’ in difficult decisions. But in most cases, it is ,unfortunately, really only deducted for. Meaning, if a koi is poorly cared for - it shows and it counts. The expectation is that all the show fish will shine like show fish. So whether a breeder put the finishing touches on a fish or the owner, it is not able to be determined/ assessed and therefore is not part of the judging. You all should also know that first rate ringers ARE pampered and well cared for fish. So if they hit water that is sub par- especially if they are large fish- they react very badly and go down hill very quickly. A loss of volume and a yellowing of skin, along with a drop in luster cells is a very very common outcome of moving a jumbo off site in Japan, onto a plane and then into strange water in another country. We all have our challenges in this game- no one gets a free pass.