GC cosmetic surgery?

[Dan Blatt]

Sometimes they can appear and then over a period of several months disappear. Fools rush in applies here.

[joe bauer]

i appreciate all the input and i am going to tell you my impressions from it and i hope you will not be bashful about telling me if or where i am wrong.

it is unethical to do cosmetic surgery to a fish, but it can be and sometimes is done.

i wouldn't do it to a lower grade fish, but if i had a fish being raised by a dealer for me, and the dealer told me the fish had GC potential except for a small black spot, i would ask the dealer if the black spot could be removed. i would not do it myself, i do not have any experience. but if the dealer said he could do it, i would tell him to go ahead. i would justify this by telling myself that i had not removed the spot, i had increased the value of the fish many times over, and now people could enjoy looking at a beautiful fish at the show and that would further the hobby. if anyone asked me about the small scar, i would say a lot of things might have caused it.

would i have done anything wrong?

[Charlie_23456]

I have to agree with Stephen!...Did I just say that?

[joe bauer]

Quote: Originally Posted by steve height Hello Mayor - The Answer is yes in your case. Let Your Conscience Be Your Guide! You stated it would be unethical in your opinion to do so. Then you do so for personal gain & lie about it. You went against your conscience & therefore know that you have done some wrong.

you are corrrect as far as you go. i started this thread not even knowing if cosmetic surgery on fish were possible. but i started this thread in order to get some information from those who really know, and based on that information, i have decided that if i have a potential GC i would get the proceedure done.

of course, i am not in a situation where i have the choice, but if i were in that situation i now believe that i would get it done. yes, partially for personal gain, the value of the fish would increase many times over, but there is another factor - other people do it. if others do it and i don't, then i am putting myself at a disadvantage if i don't do it. so i believe i would do it.

would you do it?

[joe bauer]

you did mean me by "mayor" didn't you?

[joe bauer]

Quote: Originally Posted by steve height No - I am in a situation where I don't need to do it. Even if I did feel that need, my conscience would tell me that it was wrong & I would not do it.

that is good to hear.

but wouldn't it bother you that someone else in the same situation would likely do it. judging by the responses to this thread, i don't think it is unusual.

another factor is money, which does not influence some people, but if i had $10,000 invested in a fish and i could make it a GC worth $40,000 by doing something simple that many others do, well i just think it would be too tempting for me.

there is a law against speeding, and i usually don't speed, but many people do and there are times when i do to. i don't feel that speeding is right, but there are always those "other factors".

and why do you call me "mayor"?

[aquitori]

Let me throw this in the mix for you all...

How would you feel if you entered a (true) tosai of 7 inches and it got beat out by an older fish (let's say sansai) of the same size at a show.

Hobbyist like to keep their fish small so what about this question.

[joe bauer]

i hate to admit it, but i don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. which one of the fish had cosmetic surgery?

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by joe bauer i hate to admit it, but i don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. which one of the fish had cosmetic surgery?

Since you are in the "Show" mood questioning, I had to ask how would you feel if a older fish (bonsai nisai) beat out your (true) tosai...

[James P]

There is cosmetic surgery and then there is cleaning up a koi. One is a hanging offense and the other isn’t. A koi might respond to water conditions and throw a shimmie or two.And in response, the breeder might take his finger nail or a blade and scrape off the surface sumi. This has long been the equivalent of plucking the white hairs off a dobie’s chest before a dog show.

But an insidious and deceitful practice has become more and more wide spread in Japan that is not as innocent as what I just described. This is true cosmetic surgery where the pattern is altered to make the fish more valuable and more show worthy. The main ‘sin’ here, besides fundamental immorality, is that the finished product is a now a knock off of what is typically the look of a higher priced, higher quality patterned koi. A fish with a red face is made to look like a perfect horse shoe head pattern. Or a very boring fish is given a head pattern that is interesting and excites. Along the body lines, a false kiwa can be created. Secondary hi ban is completely removed.

This is called ‘winter work’ by the truly cynical breeders and it probably puts a lot of money in the industry’s pocket.

ZNA has discussed this rising tide of cheating at length in many committee meetings. At the end of the day, it is very hard to prove even if a practiced eye knows that a pattern before them is not natural and can only be man made. And like any form of counterfeiting, some are so good, they only leave the slightest of white scaring. You can see it but you can’t prove it.