GC cosmetic surgery?

[joe bauer]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Since you are in the "Show" mood questioning, I had to ask how would you feel if a older fish (bonsai nisai) beat out your (true) tosai...

on that question i am about where i was a few days ago on cosmetic surgery.

i have never considered your question, and i do not know the rules, so i would start a thread addressing the question and hopefully a lot of experienced people would weigh in and then i could try to figure out how i would feel in that situation.

[joe bauer]

Quote: Originally Posted by James P There is cosmetic surgery and then there is cleaning up a koi. One is a hanging offense and the other isn’t. A koi might respond to water conditions and throw a shimmie or two.And in response, the breeder might take his finger nail or a blade and scrape off the surface sumi. This has long been the equivalent of plucking the white hairs off a dobie’s chest before a dog show. But an insidious and deceitful practice has become more and more wide spread in Japan that is not as innocent as what I just described. This is true cosmetic surgery where the pattern is altered to make the fish more valuable and more show worthy. The main ‘sin’ here, besides fundamental immorality, is that the finished product is a now a knock off of what is typically the look of a higher priced, higher quality patterned koi. A fish with a red face is made to look like a perfect horse shoe head pattern. Or a very boring fish is given a head pattern that is interesting and excites. Along the body lines, a false kiwa can be created. Secondary hi ban is completely removed. This is called ‘winter work’ by the truly cynical breeders and it probably puts a lot of money in the industry’s pocket. ZNA has discussed this rising tide of cheating at length in many committee meetings. At the end of the day, it is very hard to prove even if a practiced eye knows that a pattern before them is not natural and can only be man made. And like any form of counterfeiting, some are so good, they only leave the slightest of white scaring. You can see it but you can’t prove it.

ok, the question is where is the line that makes it wrong? my theoretical potential GC kohaku has a black spot 1/2" in diameter which has to be cut out. i am not altering the pattern, i am only removing a blemish. is that ethical?

[James P]

These is no such thing as a 1/2 inch shimmie. And you can't remove sumi as it is in the dermis and epidermis. You would obliterate the koi's skin if you tried that. So that question is not valid.

Joe, do you actually keep koi or are you like Newt and just have a burning interest in other's hobbies? JR

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by joe bauer on that question i am about where i was a few days ago on cosmetic surgery. i have never considered your question, and i do not know the rules, so i would start a thread addressing the question and hopefully a lot of experienced people would weigh in and then i could try to figure out how i would feel in that situation.

I suggest goin to a koi club website find an old show packet and read the rules. They are usually the same koi show rules everyone uses... This will give you a some what understanding of a koi show.

[bekko]

James,

How do they do all that "winter work" stuff? I can sort of visualize scraping under a scale. But, how do you modify a head pattern?

This all sounds a little dangerous. You could turn a nearly-perfect fish into a dead fish.

-steve

[James P]

The head area is where most of the 'winter work' gets done. The reason is, and I'm sure you can picture it when I discribe this- the skin is thin on the skull and jaw so it is easy to obliterate those color layers. And the resulting cellular damage is on white so that the white scar is hard to see. Especially after the koi grows, so the younger the alteration subject, the better. Most embarassing for a judge is when an exhibitor points out that this fish was beautiful but now for some reason, it is getting speckling of red lines on its face and jaw! This return of the beni is a reconstituting of the cells along the original pattern line of course. But it gives the beginner the impression that beni sometimes ' grows' in gosanke. Not true of course, but they tend to believe their own eyes!


By the way, let me apologize to Joe and correct myself. Upon thinking about it, you could have a sanke, lets say, that had unfortunate placement of sumi on the head and that could be obliterated with a dremel tool. So sumi also can be removed in certain areas.
JR

[gregbickal]

When they show koi by size, it doesn't mean they have to be a certain age do they? Interesting question. The older fish would have the advantage (mabye) 2 year old fish are in quite the stage of development.

[joe bauer]

Quote: Originally Posted by James P These is no such thing as a 1/2 inch shimmie. And you can't remove sumi as it is in the dermis and epidermis. You would obliterate the koi's skin if you tried that. So that question is not valid. Joe, do you actually keep koi or are you like Newt and just have a burning interest in other's hobbies? JR

i just looked at the black spot on the fish that someone posted a picture of and figured it was about 1/2" diameter. i don't think the specific fish matters so much as the fact that it can be done and is done. it would make it very difficult to raise a GC if you are competing with others who are doing cosmetic surgery on theirs.

i have some domestic koi, all very friendly. i used to have some kohaku, not show quality by any means, but identifiable as kohaku and again all had good personalitys. i killed them by following the advice of an "expert" on the internet.

i intend to put in a "nice" koi pond, but there is a lot i don't know about koi, especially "nice" koi. it will be a big investment for me and i want to figure out where i am going with this hobby.

where do my questions come from? some directly from this board. someone posted about buying a GC. i did not know it was done and my first impression was that it was wrong. from what i have read here, i was mistaken, it is done more often than not.

i talked to a neighbor who also has koi. he told me that not only are GCs bought from a dealer who raises them and brings them to a show, but MANY are cosmetically altered. so i asked about that and i am still not clear on it, although i am certain there are those who read this board who can give an authoritative answer.

then someone brings up the bonsai nisai vs. tosai question and i have no idea what they are talking about. at first i thought they were pulling my leg, they still might be, BUT if i want to compete in a koi show that will be my level, for financial reasons. and i will not get a dealer to raise it for me and i will not do cosmetic surgery on it.

in short, i am a novice. i hope my questions give others an opportunity to share their knowledge of the hobby.

[JohnBender]

Joe B, do you have pics of your pond? Maybe we can help to see if your pond is adequate.

[junglegeorge12]

cmon quit esin newt, hes lookin for a house where he can have a pond again. I bet hell have one soon. how many years have you kept koi newt?