koi show ethics - nisai vs tosai

[joe bauer]

is it etical to enter a bonsai nisai in a show against a true tosai?

(if this is poorly worded, please correct it)

i am assuming that a bonsai nisai is a small two year old koi which would likely have better development than a tosai which is a koi that is less than a year old.

what do the shows rules say?
how can you tell the age of a koi?

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by joe bauer is it etical to enter a bonsai nisai in a show against a true tosai? (if this is poorly worded, please correct it) i am assuming that a bonsai nisai is a small two year old koi which would likely have better development than a tosai which is a koi that is less than a year old. what do the shows rules say? how can you tell the age of a koi?

Thanks for making this a thread.... Since I asked you the question first, what is your opinion on this?

[joe bauer]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Thanks for making this a thread.... Since I asked you the question first, what is your opinion on this?

i don't have an opinion on this. i don't know the rules of the show. i asked because i think it is an interesting question and now i would like to know. i don't even know if i worded the question correctly. there are many here whos opinions i respect and if they weigh in then i will have some information to form an opinion from.

what is your opinion?

[junglegeorge12]

I think bonsais can look great, but do not require much food, so they should not be allowed to enter shows. Unless their owners pay the true tosai owner's travel and expenses for going to a show pointlessly and spending money just to lose to their ridiculously undergrown competition. It is absolutely dastardly to do such an ignoreable act. It should also be considered nothing short of koi show treason. Such an ignoreable act could carry with it the consequences of making a judge look less than qualified and thereby ruin their standing. Horridly unacceptable. Are judges allowed to mace contestants caught doing this haneous act?

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by joe bauer i don't have an opinion on this. i don't know the rules of the show. i asked because i think it is an interesting question and now i would like to know. i don't even know if i worded the question correctly. there are many here whos opinions i respect and if they weigh in then i will have some information to form an opinion from. what is your opinion?

For me koi shows are based on size class not age. If you have a yonsai that is 7" inches, it will be placed at the time of benching in it size class. When the judges make their rounds they are only concerned about the fish that day, that is why information about the fish or owner is disclosed to the judges.

But for me it doesn't matter how old a fish is. A koi show is a beauty contest, the best fish wins regardless of age or cosmetic issues.

[koiczar]

JG12

Unfortunately, as bad as you make it sound, it is something that is done consistently at all shows, especially the All Japan Combined. Some people don't have the space for a suitable pond to grow fish any larger. Instead, they buy high quality tosai to raise, or buy bonsai nisai which are much more finished. They then condition these fish and enter them in the competition for Baby Grand Champion. I've seen this done at every show I've ever been to (and that's quite a few). One of our club members raised a few fish in a 500 gallon Qtank. One of his ginrin showas was only 10-11" and was 5 years old. Won best GR in size 1 three years in a row. We finally told him he couldn't bring it again unless it was in a larger size category.

You don't really think all those 15-30cm fish you see in Nichirin or Koi Bito that have taken awards at the All Japan shows are tosai do you? Very rarely can a tosai compete at that level. Most of those fish are 2-5 years old,kept as bonsai koi and developed at that size. Every hobbyist has a niche at a show. Not everyone can compete for GC simply because they don't have the space in Japan for the ponds to keep them (unless they're kept by the breeder) but who can afford all of that? Not everyone, that's for sure!

Mike

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar JG12 Unfortunately, as bad as you make it sound, it is something that is done consistently at all shows, especially the All Japan Combined. Some people don't have the space for a suitable pond to grow fish any larger. Instead, they buy high quality tosai to raise, or buy bonsai nisai which are much more finished. They then condition these fish and enter them in the competition for Baby Grand Champion. I've seen this done at every show I've ever been to (and that's quite a few). One of our club members raised a few fish in a 500 gallon Qtank. One of his ginrin showas was only 10-11" and was 5 years old. Won best GR in size 1 three years in a row. We finally told him he couldn't bring it again unless it was in a larger size category. You don't really think all those 15-30cm fish you see in Nichirin or Koi Bito that have taken awards at the All Japan shows are tosai do you? Very rarely can a tosai compete at that level. Most of those fish are 2-5 years old,kept as bonsai koi and developed at that size. Every hobbyist has a niche at a show. Not everyone can compete for GC simply because they don't have the space in Japan for the ponds to keep them (unless they're kept by the breeder) but who can afford all of that? Not everyone, that's for sure! Mike

Hey Mike, would you have to say Bonsai Nisai go for top dollar if they are All-Japan Class?

[James P]

A good judge will sniff out the mature small koi amongst youngsters. It could work for or against the finished bonsai depending on the competition.

[koiczar]

Aquitori,

Do you recall the 6" Yamato Nishiki that Duke bought a few years ago? It took him 3 days to convince the breeder to sell it to him and a grand to buy it!

JR

I don't understand your post. If judging is based on the "best" on that given day, why would it work against a more finished nisai or sansai in size one or two versus a tosai? How could the tosai possibly look as finished at the other two mentioned?

[Brutuscz]

I dont know why this is even a problem. A size class is a size class...if the koi is 1 yr old or 50 yr old. I read an interview with a breeder...who breeds amazing showa's..but of smaller stature. The breeder was Suzujyu koi farm. It was in koiusa magazine. His mentality was that not everyone has the room for a 36 inch koi...so his finish smaller and win their size class...often. He stated he entered 10 koi in shows that year and won 6 times...pretty impressive at that level. I would love to have one of his showa's...a true ringer in the smaller classes.