The purpose of koi shows

[Newt]

Thanks, JG...kind words.

OK, on the issue of shows, GCs, etcetera, etcetera...I do not know of any better way to have shows or dole out 'awards' for the best fish. The hobby evolved the way it has for many reasons, and will, I'm sure, remain the way it is. That is fine with me, and like everyone else, I enjoy seeing great fish, no matter who owns them.

That said, I'd like to point out, as everyone knows, that the competition side of koi keeping is highly promoted. If the shows were a true 'about the fish' display of koi and the hobby, there would be no trophy or awards ceremony or grinning winner making his acceptance speach. The best koi would be pointed out and examined and appreciated for what they are. Of course, having a 'contest' makes the show more fun for everyone, and again, there is no better way to do things than the way they're done now.

All I have said all along is that I would have more respect for someone who had some sort of input into how their fish turned out over someone who simply 'bought' the trophy. This, to me, is a no-brainer. Pick any of the high-end keepers who have won GC with fish they have raised for any length of time and tell me that you don't think more of them as koi keepers than someone who calls a dealer and says 'send me a winner.' This is not a slam against Stephen at all, as there are others who have done the same.

Do I think they shouldn't show the fish if they haven't 'raised' it? No, of course not...it's great to see them and we appreciate them taking the risk of showing. Do I think there should be a separate show for them? No, not really. All I'm saying is that more respect is due someone with great skills over someone with deep pockets, when it comes right down to it. Tell me that you don't hold in high esteem the greats of the hobby who know how to raise a fish right.

The system won't change, nor do I think it necessarily should...but the system is not 'all about the fish' as much as some would like to think it is.

Cheers.

Newt

[kingkong]

How about this than and I am not trying to take money out of dealer's wallets. Two options. Would people spend the money required to competively display large sized quality koi for a perfect 10 as judged or does it require the hoopla and recognition that goes along with blue ribbon ceremonies to be crowned the Grand Champ to make owners spend more? What is the best incentive for participants that helps bring the best koi to a show? The points or the trophy?

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by kingkong How about this than and I am not trying to take money out of dealer's wallets. Two options. Would people spend the money required to competively display large sized quality koi for a perfect 10 as judged or does it require the hoopla and recognition that goes along with blue ribbon ceremonies to be crowned the Grand Champ to make owners spend more? What is the best incentive for participants that helps bring the best koi to a show? The points or the trophy?

That would depend on whether the participant to be motivated was right-brained or left-brained.

[soelistyo]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee OK let's have the best koi show up...then other rules need to be removed...like the Declaration requierd at most US shows that the person showing the koi is not a person that derives income from the koi industry..if it is about the best fish these people have the best fish. Plain and simple. And they would be willing to come to shows and win trophies with those fish so they could sell them fro three times what they were worth before being crowned...and i am not jus ttalking about GC's...everything down to 3rd place ginrin bekko would double in its before the show price. And even some Koi shows in the US will not let last year's GC enter the show the next year. the organizers want another PERSON to win the GC prize...the fish don't care who wins the prize. They all want to stay in a mud pond and have the koi Hobbyist go pee up a rope. Sothe argument for the purpose of the koi show being that of having the best koi shown to the Public is full of bunk...the rules are designed so a hobbyist can pretend he is all about the hobby. And rich hobbyists just buy fish and the accompanying trophy. So Soelistyo, let's make the rules match the purpose...Any koi from any individual or company can be entered into the show...and let us not seperate a dealer's division from the hobbyist's, because then the "Pity prize" would be the one given to the "Hobbyist's Side". make the rules achieve the STATED purpose...OR let's pretend that having the best koi there is the Purpose of the show, yet make the rules so the hobbyists can buy the prize they want...as that is how it is now at most of the US shows.

Luke, indeed in our shows here, we do not separate dealer's division and hobbyist's. this is the case in Singapore too. as for the GC re-enter rule, there was a showa that won GC 3 years in a row in Spore (owned by a hobbyist, btw) so evidently there is no rule against a GC being entered again the next year.

i agree with PapaBear's opinion that each show should set its own rules. eventually people will know which is the best format.

[Surfhead]

I don't understand the hatred of "the ringer". why is this so bad? I think it is more jealousy like the OP stated. Husbandry is IMPOSSIBLE to judge and there is no way to prove how long a koi has been in anybody's pond. And what if some rich fella decided to raise their champion in their pond but HIRES somebody to build and maintain it and they never touch the water or feed the fish or even know how to turn on the pump? would they qualify? Or would you still call foul since they didn't do the work themselves? Besides in EVERY animal show in the world, it is dominated by the wealthy and their "ringers". Look at dog shows and horse shows....you think those animals are cheap???? Puh-lease, they cost a fortune and only the wealthy can afford to own them. and I will tell you what else, if I did have the money to own one of these amazing fish I would protect my investment and have it held in the best place possible....the breeders mud. You think the GC's in the All Japan show were not raised in the breeders mud???

who cares where the fish is held or who delivered it...to me its not relevant. its about the FISH...everything else is just noise. You want to stomp and huff and say no fair, he has more money, then go ahead but its falling on deaf ears. I WANT the ringers, I WANT to see these fish. I wish more people would fly off to Japan and bring these $100K fish back for me to see. when I see them I feel the same as when I see a Ferrari, I dream about the day I too might have myself a work of art such as that.

[KoiCop]

'cause now the Future Farmers of America (Koi Division) is gonna come at you from the right and the Socialist Workers Party (Koi Division) is gonna come at you from the left and I bet we're gonna see another 100 posts on how fair play and the nobility of the toiling masses should dictate koi show goals & objectives in Amerika.

Me, I'm with JR. Education wrapped in celebration and shrouded in competition is plenty good enough for me!

[luke frisbee]

there is a place for recognizing the people that raise their koi, become attached to them, and then show them

[PapaBear]

Those are the only kind I have. (I even like the not so pretty ones because they are in my pond). I just don't know how you can establish rules for a show that truly eliminate ringers in a way that is verifiable. Do entrants have to have paperwork on all their koi proving delivery dates to their own ponds with home pond inspections by an advance judging team? The process of "proving" you aren't bringing in a ringer would likely keep more hobbiests away than it could possibly attract.

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee there is a place for recognizing the people that raise their koi, become attached to them, and then show them

[MCA]

Why do you want koi keeping to be different than other animal shows? At dog/cat/horse shows the animals are judged against standards and each other. There is no special "atta boy" if the handler happens to be the owner and/or breeder and/or the one to shovels the stables and fetchs the water. All that is totally outside the scope of judging animals.

Let's see... I get extra points if...

• I raised the parents
• I raised the koi
• I did all the pond and filter maintenance
• I paid for all the Hikari food
• I paid for all the ST, PP, ...etc.

[Surfhead]

Luke, I CAN see where you are coming from, there IS a greater thrill in winning with a fish you raised yourself. and yes I would be a lot more proud of a trophy or ribbion if it was a koi I had since is was 6" and even more so if its a koi I BRED in my backyard. BUT the simple fact is the requirements of a pond that is able to produce a GC out of a 6" koi is beyond 99% of all ponders so it is STILL going to be a very wealthy individual who is able to do this. A guy like me with 3000 gallons and a DIY 55 gal barrel filter system simply isn't going to be able to do it. So what then? will people still say its not fair because their pond is a ringer? How can the average hobbiest compete against some guy that spent $200K building their pond? The fact is the "average" hobbiest isn't going to compete at the highest level of the hobby, not in koi, not in dogs or horses or any other animal show.

I like the idea of having a seperate section just for "husbandry" but the only way to fairly judge this is for everybody to start with the same stock. For example, at the previuos years show 50 fish where sorted and graded and found to be equal in quality. Then 50 participants took these fish home and the following year they were judged. Then maybe you could judge husbandry. Otherwise I just don't see how it could be done.