The purpose of koi shows

[Newt]

'Head, finally, someone who read what I said. Thank you. As I've said, all I said was that it would be more impressive for someone who had a hand in raising a koi to win GC with it than someone who simply bought it. This is highly unlikely, though, and therefore the shows are the way they are. I don't remember anyone saying that it is 'unfair' for someone to win with a 'ringer.' I must have missed that.

Again, thanks!

Newt

[MCA]

IMHO as long as a koi and owner fit inside the rules of a given show...neither can be ringers!

If you really want to judge husbandry, you would have to remove all other independent variables by having alll contestants have several fry each from the same spawn. They all need the same pond, filter, food, water, weather. When you change any of them, you reduce the ability to compare husbandry. The more independent variables you have at each pond system, the harder it becomes can point to hubandry being the key. There has to be reasons why the other animal shows don't go there.

For example, two koi are of equal quality. Both were raised by the owners for at least a year. One koi was in a system of modest cost. The other is in a state of the art koi dream pond. Which owner gets the husbandy award? The answer should be it is a toss up as the judges should not know or give a dang how much money/time/effort the owner put into the koi.

The ONLY thing that matters is the quality of that koi and the quality of the competing koi. And just as it is none of the judges' business how much was spent on the pond and filters....it is not their business how much the koi cost, who bred it, who retailed it , or which pond(s) it has been in since birth.

If you feel differently, ask your local club(s) to do some type of husbandry award in their 2006 show.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Surfhead ...I like the idea of having a seperate section just for "husbandry" but the only way to fairly judge this is for everybody to start with the same stock. For example, at the previuos years show 50 fish where sorted and graded and found to be equal in quality. Then 50 participants took these fish home and the following year they were judged. Then maybe you could judge husbandry. Otherwise I just don't see how it could be done.

Which is precisely what some people do. I have some acquaintances (via the internet) in Malaysia who engage in that kind of "Growout Contest" where they pick Koi from a pool of stock after drawing lots for selcection order. They have the opportunity to compare notes on the selection process, husbandry, etc., and at the end everyone is benefited by the experience. That sort of activity within a Club environment is an excellent opportunity to learn various aspects of koikeeping for people at every end of the experience spectrum, but difficult to incorporate into a show. I do think that if clubs wanted to add something like that to a show it could be an added draw and educational opportunity. It could even be a way to get new people to come back to the next show just to see the results.

[keokoi]

Purpose of koi shows is so we don't have to sit here online and think about koi shows....

A lot of good Ideas but how many actually have talked about it at your clubs Meetings? or tried to make such a thing happen?


Joe

[MCA]

We already do something. We gave members the chance to purchase fry from the same domestic spawn. Folks bring them to the show in 2 years. While those koi are entered into the main show the same as any other, they are also eligible for a special award for the best of the bunch. But we don't kid each other that such an award proves best husbandry any more or less that any other award at the show.

[luke frisbee]

The accomplishments of hobbyists who actual bring koi they have raised to shows would not be difficult.
Anyone could enter any koi..but have a set-up whereby a Hobbyist that has raised his koi could Ask to have his koi entered in the "Pet category"...where the only requirement be that you ask, and that another hobbyist will say they saw the fish in your pond.
if you are out there and you don't invite fellow hobbyists to drop by and look at your fish. WELL HERE'S A REASON!
"Hey MikeM how 'bout coming over for a beer I am going to catch and size some f my fish and I'd like for you to see em so someone can vouch for me at the show."

[Surfhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee The accomplishments of hobbyists who actual bring koi they have raised to shows would not be difficult. Anyone could enter any koi..but have a set-up whereby a Hobbyist that has raised his koi could Ask to have his koi entered in the "Pet category"...where the only requirement be that you ask, and that another hobbyist will say they saw the fish in your pond. if you are out there and you don't invite fellow hobbyists to drop by and look at your fish. WELL HERE'S A REASON! "Hey MikeM how 'bout coming over for a beer I am going to catch and size some f my fish and I'd like for you to see em so someone can vouch for me at the show."

but that still doesn't prove anything and you still would not be able to judge husbandry. It would be very easy to buy a $100K fish and it delivered to your pond a few months before the show so people can see it. Plus you need to take genetics into consideration. For example you take a pet smart koi and have it raised by a true expert of husbandry and it grows up in a perfect environment and that worthless $5 koi is brought to its full potential...should it win over a $1000 koi with superior genetics, pattern, quality, etc but was raised in a moderate environment by a mid-level hobbiest? The superior fish will win over the pet smart crapagoi every time...but that is not an accurate judgment of husbandry. If you want husbandry to be judged, you must eliminate genetics and quality from the score card and everybody must start with equal quality fish from the same spawn...that is the only way the keeper with superior husbandry skill will prevail.

[MCA]

and also have the same pond, filter, water, weather....otherwise the wealthy pond owner can purchase enough technology to have fantastic water

bottom line....there can never be a level playing field.......

[Newt]

Whoa! I'm at the point of 'why bother' on this issue, but just can't let this one go past. Who is saying that 'money' is a problem? If you didn't let people try different 'pond, filter, water, weather,' then what is 'husbandry?' It's the act of keeping the koi by different means. NO ONE said that they have a problem with people with money being able to have all the 'right' stuff and win with it.

Jeez. It is simple...a person who to some degree raises or cares for a koi should get more respect when/if it wins GC than someone who had no input other than buying it.

No one is suggesting that people with money shouldn't play, or that all koi shows should be 'growout' contests. That's silly, and I don't know why that is still being bandied about.

Newt

[luke frisbee]

Yeah what newt said....
I'd totally admire a hobbyist that liked looking at koi so much he made what that guy in Holland(?) did in the new thread today. And if that guy showed up with some honkers from his pond I'd listen to what he had to say...perhaps I could make a third world filter on his filtration principles, and improve my pond.
But then there ar epeople that never sse the koi "they" are entering, and they brag about the ponds they build..... not nice.

I want to see the koi that people are seeing at their homes...so I can see if I can keep better koi at my house.