The purpose of koi shows

[luke frisbee]

Yes not only husbandry but abilty to get quality koi to start with would be a variable...whether that was from having enough money, being friends with a dealer/breeder, having the ability to see a koi's future promise, or LUCK.
But as all these things are what ALL hobbyists can do and must deal with it would be a good trophy for shows to promote.

[James P]

"And at the last CFKS I watched some "high-end" hobbyists cruise the sale tanks and pic koi to be placed in the show because they knew what catgories were weak and they could buy a place for their name on the site of the "Winners"."

Luke


Luke, once again, you prescribe the worst possible motives to club members! A show suffers if varieties are missing in a koi show line up. Some of the education is lost. As a judge, I would actively encourage people to try and fill the holes of missing varieties with entries! It also makes the show more fun to provide competition where there was none! I'm always telling people to bring a nice bekko to the show as the variety is always missing these days!
In the old days, when Japanese style shows were the norm, we would always visit a sister club's show and buy a few small koi to enter into the show to help support our sister club, drive up entry number goals, support local dealers who bought a booth, and then if the fish won, auction them off for the club's treasury. It was great fun and showed great support for the hobby and that club.
How you get such selfish motives out of it, saddens me ?
JR

[luke frisbee]

<--never seen the "auction", but next time you're at a show I'll ask around..when was the last time you (or anyone I know) did that?

And how much "suffering" is there when that kind of hole-plugging is done.....
So the show loses credibility by members buying fish to make it look like the show is Bigger than it is? not a good thing....morally

And I assign that behavior to people of the lowest form...some that "happen/pretend to be hobbyists and by a little spot on the stage.....probably cuz they can't afford to buy the $6 trophy...they get the 50 cent certificate.

yeah ya got a bekko, bring it...or even a good LONG FIN!
but buying a little peice of paper ...priceless

[luke frisbee]

and the motive is not one of "selfishness". In this case it is one of immaturity and a lack of moral character....which fortunately is not the norm of hobbyists that bring their koi to the show.

[junglegeorge12]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee <--never seen the "auction", but next time you're at a show I'll ask around..when was the last time you (or anyone I know) did that? And how much "suffering" is there when that kind of hole-plugging is done..... So the show loses credibility by members buying fish to make it look like the show is Bigger than it is? not a good thing....morally And I assign that behavior to people of the lowest form...some that "happen/pretend to be hobbyists and by a little spot on the stage.....probably cuz they can't afford to buy the $6 trophy...they get the 50 cent certificate. yeah ya got a bekko, bring it...or even a good LONG FIN! but buying a little peice of paper ...priceless

This is getting ridiculous luke. By your line of thinking, anyone who bought a koi anywhere at any time was commitiing the impardonable koi show sin, and if they bred them and bought the parents, why that must be twice as bad. I mean heck, everyone who shows must be guilty of something cuz it didnt come from lake luke right?

[luke frisbee]

JG I don't care if they bought it two months before the show.
here is what I would believe would be a minimum to be considered for being the "Pet GC".
The fish should have been in the general population pond of the person who owns it and is bringing it to the show.
(THAT IS ALL.....by being in the General Population this would exclude the "hobbyist" from buying a fish and having it sent to him and kept in QT for a week before the show. And would mean that the fish was actually in the care of the hobbyist.)

Now I've come to the point where I am not trying to exclude the "best" fish from being "brought" to the show...or even bought at the show.
But having "Hobbyists" denote if the koi they own that are at the show are indeed koi that have been a part of their open Koi collection back at the ranch so that those of us would like to add another dimension to the show and give proper recognition to those of us that do try to improve our koi, and do try to buy young koi and attempt to improve them while we have them could be recognized so that THAT GROUP of hobbyists could compete on our lowly level.

It would enrich the experience at koi shows for MANY of the entry-level hobbyists and those that like the idea of raising/improving koi as much as looking at koi.

[Bern]

Hi Luke.

I'm learning some very new, but apt, terminology from this thread.
"Hole fillers" - That happens over here and I personallly have no problem with it, only a worry about the lack of quarantine. Prior to the quarantine issue, it was never a big issue as there were extenuating circumstances that kept it under control. Whether these apply in the US I don't know but maybe they could be, so here's what they are.

1. Benching takes place the day before the show opens, and on the first morning of the show. The opportunity to find a fish at the dealers and get it benched in time is very limited.

2. The volume of fish already in the vat is taken into account. We wont allow further additions if we consider the vat to be full.

If neither of the above apply then the koi will be accepted as it doesn't infringe on the rules. This year I had two complaints about another, but similar aspect. Hobbyists bring koi to the show and then returning home to get more.

The first instance, the hobbyists informed me that he had more koi to bring before he had even unloaded his fish. His reason, was that some were proving difficult to catch and he didn't want the one he had caught left in the bags longer than necessary. He was in vat 6 (our of 40) so he wasn't guilty of hole-filling.

The second incidence, a hobbyist in vat 12 then decided to do the same thing. By the time he informed me of it (late afternoon on 1st Day of benching) approx half the vats were full. I believe this guy was 'hole-filling'.

Both incidents amount to the same thing but with different motives. I don't believe either gained any advantage but it did upset a few people.

But on the whole, the real hole-fillers do little harm, and it the pieces of paper mean so much to them, especially the risk they run with bypassing quarantine, they only harm themselves.


On an upbeat note. Your friend Cliff Neale, who BTW would probably have qualified for a 'Ringer' in 2003 has proposed and had accepted a new set of awards for 'Koi-keeping'. I believe the concept is 'any hobbyist that returns to the same show a year later and picks up an identical or better prize'. I haven't seen the details in print yet so I could be a little out, but I believe I'm not far off.

rgds BERN

[James P]

I think the problem is Luke is taking the 'competition' aspect of the koi show ,way, way too seriously? Luke, its about having fun. Its not 'cheating' to buy a koi before hand. And as I said, in the old days, it was considered polite and supportive to do just that. It is alos being a club member and just being a part of the event. If the koi wins a first or second place ribbon and goes home with the owner, its added to pond along with a fond memory. If the fish happened to beat a fish that was owned by another club member that bought it the previous spring and feed and grew it two inches- then the best fish won.And that’s kinda the point of the show- to learn why some koi are considered better works of art than other and to expose the public to the varieties available.

Here's what I can tell you as an experienced koi judge- when I look into a vat of three, 50-55 cm, say- ai goromo, I see:

1) the fundamental quality of each fish.

2) the condition of each fish

3) the worthiness of each fish according to the standards ( elements, defects, etc)

4) the unique characteristics of each fish.



At no time do I dwell on, consider or even give a ‘flip’ who owns these fish!



And sometimes I can tell if they have been in a koi pond for a while or if they are ‘fresh’. But the fun thing is to find out about the koi the next day from the owners. Remember, I’m there to learn too. Often a koi I’m sure was just bought turns out to owned and housed in a club members pond for a while. And on the flip side, an expensive fish that is supposed to be ‘fresh’ is actually thin and dull due to handling and stress. The owner who has invested the time but is NOT too good at keeping koi yet is the one who’s fish I can sniff out and is the fish that suffers in the competition because of lack of condition, not the guy who has ‘fooled me’ with a fresh, highly tuned fish that looks like it is just off the plane.

I really can’t understand why you seem to want to see these things in such an ugly way?

JR

[MCA]

Luke,

If you feel so strongly on this topic, take the action item to get your local club(s) to make the corresponding show rule changes to their 2006 shows to implement a "husbandry" award. Invest your time and energy on this topic towards the officers of your local club(s). Then let the rest of us know the results.

[James P]

That is a good suggestion Michael, but I'll bet a penny Luke would not like it. Because in hos singular focus on competition as the reason for a koi show, he would want all held to this standard. Right Luke?

I also would like to see , in addition to a dealer division, an American bred division. We could give them the show tanks normally reserved for those longfin abominations! JR