The AKCA vs ZNA judging style.

[James P]

Gents, we can't pick and choose what we want from the art and mystique of Japanese koi and its culture! Its a total package! Otherwise call kohaku- 'red and white koi'. Transpose the 'their era' descriptions for ours ( most of the varieties developed around the civil war and world war 1 - we can have the 'Bull Run koi' and the 'doughboy koi" ! ) and Begin comparing the harmony and look of koi ponds with electric blue chiclids and albino tiger oscars swimming along side showa. Judge 'short fin' koi against ' long fin' koi. pick winners based on how the jury 'feels' about how pretty a koi strikes them. Call a two year old koi - a - two - year - old - koi. Ban the name nishikigoi, especially if the fish is American born. Landscape the pond in South western cactus motif. Feed the koi beef. Everyone breed their koi and keep the red speckled ones as unique forms. get rid of koi judges and have the public vote on the winner ( minorities and women get an extra vote). Ban the use of any Japanese discriptions regarding pattern and color. NOW you have an All American view of the hobby. Picking and choosing what to adapt to and what to throw out is intellectually lazy and shows a resistance to learning.

JR Irish American ( sure those Japanese are good but can they 'find their way' around a boiled potato! I don't think so!) LOLs

[dick benbow]

Jim, I agree with you that you have to have a basis to start with anything.
But i do enjoy how different cultures bring something uniquely their own to the mix. I think with such a strong market in europe and the americas as well as asia, we have seen some changes already that have influenced the japanese producers to their markets. I notice it also in the world of bonsai, with the strong influence europe has on that hobby.
A little chives, a little sour cream, maybe some bacon bits and I think they may be tempted to accept even more.....

merry christmas, Im glad your an active contributor to our board!

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by James P Gents, we can't pick and choose what we want from the art and mystique of Japanese koi and its culture! Its a total package!...

I totally agree. I just don't think most westerners are willing or able to devote the time and discipline to the "TOTAL package". I'm not a judge, and I don't play one on TV. Just a simple hobbiest who appreciates what Japanese culture brings to the table in a unique way. I am glad there are people like you in the hobby who go deeper and try to bring the rest of us along.

[koidoc]

Very good post Larry. Jim likes to take things to extreme. Whether we like color better, and Europe liks pattern better, the Brits like the back half better, The Americans like the front half better, and the Chinese likes the taste better. These do not change the Standards that are set by years of Japanese History. The fish will still look the same and have two barbels per side. Color will still be color, patterns will still be deteremined by the flavor of the week in Japan. Just when I learned there was no black on the head of a Sanke and no red in the pecs of Kohaku. The Japanese changed the standards. I do not know any Americans calling up Japan asking for the Change. How dare they mess with the Standard their Great Grandfathers established. Whoare the Japanese to go against Japanese. Breeding evolves. Is this an advancement or a buturing of standards. I say Americans should unite and hold the line. Get that black offthe head of Sanke. See I can go to extreme to but the bottom line is no matter how we enjoy koi or look at them the standards are still set by Jims Masters. Now do not even try to talk about Longfins changing the hobby. They are not Koi. They are just a side show. The absurdpart is asking Koi Judges to judge them. We know nothing about them because they are outside the standards. See where standards still control the hobby. I would just as soon judge a poodle. I know more about them.
Now speaking of Side Shows. Long Fins do not hurt a koi show, they are a side show. Goldfish do not hurt a Koi Show, they are a side show. Why are these good. Because entry level watergardeners are here. Where do they go.With education to Koi, then show again, then high level koi. Does having a Home Show next to the Koi Show cheapen the Koi Show. No the, Koi do not get worse, but it may bring in an extra 1000 people that say"maybe we should try a watergarden".
It is all good.
The hobby is not weakening or losing people because standards are changing. Here are the main reasons why shows are getting smaller.
1.Baby Boomers are getting older. Their $150,000 homes were paid off. Their kids went to great public schools. They worked 9-5 M-F and had weekends off to play with hobbies. Spare cash was everywhere. Not only did they get in the hobbby but had the money to get to a higher level, With sparetime they had volunteer time to do shows. They lived in times of 20% return on their money from stock market. Now they are getting tired and retiring to smaller house and getting to old to lug those fish to shows. They have also done the show the last ten years and are burned out.
2. What are they being replaced by? People working 7 days a week to pay for that same home that is now $400,000 and getting a return of 3-4% on their money. They are sending their kids to private school because public schools suck. So it is now more like 8 years of college tuition. Some have good jobs and they are setting up small water gardens. But they are stuck in this mode where filtration does not get better and when they get real good they step up to the $300 level. If you want to make the hobby better and raise the level of the Hobby the education has to be at the pond and filter level, Success at this level encourages people to step up.
What worries me is that maybe 300,000 koi come in the country(just made up number) and there are only 150,000 in peoples ponds. Has anyone ever wondered where the extras went. Has any one noticed the drop in fertilizer sales for roses? More people are using dead koi. This is what we should be worried about.
3. The one AMERICANIZATION that hurts shows is that Americans only look at winning shows. Top awards are mostly controled by a handful of peopl at each show, but this does not make a show. Guilty as charged, but we need to push the education and yes FUN of a koi show that lets people compete for first place ribbons. Japan is better in this aspect.
While we are on Americanization why are we not talking about Europinazation or others. Europe was the first to go to one vote for Japanese Judges. Wasn't the top dealer in Europe MagNoy for awhile. Wantto see some nice longfins. Take a tour of UK ponds, not just Peters customers.
We all have different ways to look at koi and different levels we feel comfortable with spending. Myself I stop at 1 million yen. This might not get it done anymore. Some are $100. All koi still have standards no matter what level and those will always stay. Japanese change standards yet we still follow them even for benching. Why could anyone think this will change because we look at it differently. If I look at the Mona Lisa and admire the way the eyes look into my soul and the Japanese look at it and enjoy the background shadows that set the piece off, does it make any difference. It is still the Mona Lisa. Have we made it any less of a piece of art. We are talking about pieces of art aren't we?
So lets not worry if I am a leg man and Jim is an A** man, as long as we can both admire the women as a whole.
We need to concentrate on fliters and optimizing koi potential. This happens no koi die, this happens people up there budget, this happens they enter shows, and if this happens they earn the right to challenge JR on the Boards. See then everyone is happy. The average age of a koi club is changing. We have to lower this age and bring up water gardeners. Do not be afraid of them. Nuture. "BUILD A POND AND THEY WILL COME" Koi and their Standards will still be there. Japanese koi win shows and do you think they are going to change if we only want one barbel instead of two. Don't be ridiculous.

[koidoc]

Does anyone remember the Harry Chapin Song
It was about a young boy that went to school and the teacher during art time said take out your crayons and draw lots of flowers. The boy used every color in the rainbow and made flowers of all colors. When his teacher looked at his art she said" Flowers are red young man, green leaves are green, there's no use to see flowers any other way than the way they always have been seen" and she punished the child. The child grew up and went to another school and the teacher said lets draw. The child painted flowers in red and green and the teacher looked again at his work. She asked with all the colors in the rainbow why did you use only red and green and the child said"Flowers are red, green leaves are green, there is no use to see flowers any other way then the way they always has been seen." Then the teacher said" There are so many colors in the rainbow, so many colors in the morning sun, so many colors in a flower so lets use everyone"
So even teachers have different ways to look at things and we should not dictate the way things are seen. Each person or culture has their own appreciation. At the end of the day they were all flowers. Nobody said take away the leaves and stems. Just enjoy them for the art in your own creative way.
That Harry Chapin was way ahead of his time.

[junglegeorge12]

"Feed the koi beef." JR

See, I could take this lesson, and say JR taught it to me this way. That happens in any mentoring situations, especially when there is a language ro cultural barrier. I seriously doubt americans who are not TOTALLY fluent in Japanese really fully grasp thier concept for judging koi. Probably the major points, but gettting the in depth grasp of all of it? Not without really mastering the language, or them mastering ours, and then you will only hear the views of the few who learned english that well. I think one thing we can all do is look at their judging results, compare them from show to show, and see patterns that emerge as meaning something, then pursuing to understand exactly what.

For this hobby to grow, it has to be 'hobbiest friendly' and have a little flavor americans enjoy, or it will flop here. So it cannot be done exactly like in Japan, but we can carry all the roots, the virtues, the priorities, the art, the culture, and then add some american spice to it. I personally do not feel I grew up american, even though I was in america. The reason is I was innundated by other cultures. I don't like american chinese food, because it isn't chinese food, I don't like taco bell, because it isn't mexican food. So for me, I want the real aritcle and to relish it for what it is. However, I think that is a minority view in america. Most americans want it to cater to them, not challenge them. I guess it is just human nature. So this arguement will rage on for decades to come, because it has to do with how weak humans deal with merging cultures.

[James P]

George, not sure if you've been to Japan to actually interactive with folks over there? ( No trump card dealt here by the way, but still a point to be made)--

Many of the ZNA types who have been around the hobby most of their adult lives can speak English, as can many of the exporters, breeder’s kids and chiba dealers.

And several of the high end guys will spend hours talking koi if you have an interpreter and are willing to learn. Sakai ( Matsunosuki) talked to us for days when we had an interpreter along. The lessons flowed over tea and crackers for a LONG time. Then we went outside and saw 'live' examples of everything discussed. You'd be amazed how just pointing and eye contact make the point after hearing the words through an interpreter.

In fact, one of the fun things about the hobby is going from breeder to breeder and asking the SAME question! Confirmation is the basic motive but surprises in answers can shed more light than the desired 'consensus' that was originally hoped for!

Once you have learned these things, a half dozen or so ‘get togethers’ with Japanese judges in the form of an official ZNA program will either reenforce your views or send you down a road of confusion causing you to ultimately reach higher level of understanding. It’s all very very interesting.

Not all Japanese judges are equally talented of course, and when in Japan, at shows like The ZNA All Japan, you meet Japanese hobbyists who are just as unsophisticated as anyone on these koi boards. So this is hardy a genetic thing! I can agree however that being ‘of the culture’ and ‘of the language’ is a huge leg up. Just means outsides have to work harder.

By the way, I have had both breeders and dealers in Japan tell me things I KNOW were wrong. Some times out of pure innocence and sometimes generated by malicious business intention. But that is another conversation.

[koidoc]

Very Good Jim and Jungle. These concepts I can agree on. And yes I have gotten many stories that conflict in Japan. Even from the masters. And after many trips to Japan and many long talks you can learn different things. I am one of those that have sat down for long talks with Konishi, Nagata, Marusada, Isa, Kawakami, Hoshino and others. Long talks over tea, snacks, sake, dinner, lunch etc with pictures drawn on napkins. This for me is the trenches. I learn more that way than most of all my Judging assignments. And like Jim said after this you can go to a big Japan Show and walk out scratching your head,
Like Jungle George said you need to do this many times and put together all your experiences. Then add to that the years of studying development of different breeders fish. And then add it all together as your Perception of Koi. Now you can see that if Jim hung out with a different set of breeders and judged different shows and bought from different dealers he would have a slightly different perception. But do not confuse that with him knowing the correct standards and me being sick that day. We both will fight to the end to keep a Koi a Koi. But if my most important color on a koi is white and his is red, it does not matter. We can still pick out the best Kohaku that puts both of those together. We are on the same page but I read left to right and he reads from top to bottom. Same information on the page when we are done reading and will stay the same information long after we are dead.
This is the way I feel and I hope there is enough give and take in the hobby to allow these different approaches without saying the other is wrong.

[luke frisbee]

Rubber worms.
Back in the '60's, rubber worms were just getting popular for bass. All the Experts believed that any color would catch bass, as long as it was black.
After 20 years all the experts disagreed; you could find an expert that would tell you that bass only hit neon green worms in turbid water, and another that would swear the bass would only hit "natural" colors in turbid waters...
Just like Koi..... and Koi Experts/judges...
They create the rules and then the rules change...because they change them...nothing special.....and some fishermen think the rules are hard and fast.
Hobbies that have at their core a subject that can change will be changed because a segment of the hobby wants change.

[Bancherd]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee because a segment of the hobby wants change.

When you are in a cage with KingKong, KingKong makes the rule.

I remember telling a manager that one of his company's rules was against the law, he response was the equivalent of "Who the hell are you?"

Also, apprentice system has many good points but it is really tough on the ego.