The AKCA vs ZNA judging style.

[aquitori]

The AKCA vs ZNA judging style. American style of judging as JR put it is simplistic...That means the Japanese style of judging is complex...Should judging be complex or simple?

[Ryan S.]

JR? Can you discuss the difference in judging perceptions in the smaller classes 1-4. GC and large sizes always gets the press discussion but the smaller sizes I actually think there is difference between the camps. AKCA/most finished fish in size class or ZNA?

[dick benbow]

let's look at it a little differently


both these organizations have individuals in them that don't always follow a tried and true path. This is also true for judges selected from the shinkokai or breeders organization. What you find is that each has it;s own separate priorities yet each is influenced by the individual.

I had a friend who showed arabians. One judge loved his dappled grey. Some how his horse always showed up at those shows.??????

Part of the fun of koi keeping is learning the differences and individuals and having an "a" and "B" team to repond to anyone show situation.

if a rose was always red....would it smell the same? a cheer of a thousand years...to the differences....long may they live!

[koidoc]

No comment. The AKCA and ZNA are exactly the same, but you bring up a good point about all judges, even within the same organization are different. I have judged and watch judge many Japanese ZNA judges and they are totally different for a group that is only on the true path. Mr. Hiroi at Koi America 1999 was way different from Mr. Shinoda at Koi America 2005 and Mr. Takeda is totally different again. Mr. Kato is still different. Some Judge like American style like Mr. Hiroi. Some are very consistent whether you can agree with them or not like Mr. Kato. At least you can predict the way they are judging. Then some are just following their own path. American Judges are the same way. The Japanese are people to and have their own personal likes. Put all the Japanese together for All Japan and they are led by a few of the elders to a decision that seems unaminous. Split them up to their own shows, their own personalities come out. Americans same way. The difference in ZNA is their is a pecking order of who talks and out of respect the students go along. I guess you know this is where Americans do it wrong. We each have out own say and then vote so no one persons views will dictate. Even as Head Judge I will not overide a vote unless it involves a major decision and then only after a discussion. People I think like to Judge with me as I do not Judge. I guide and never talk first. Just my style.
But Shows will decide over the years what styles they like and invite those people. I know too simple and Japanese never disagree.

[KoiCop]

Antonio: Thanks for splitting this off from your thread “Judging for GC All-Japan Style.”

The aspect which I am most interested in addressing is not so much whether ZNA and AKCA have different judging styles (I believe they do) or even whether their respective styles can be characterized as complex vs. simple (I believe they can).

It’s the why that fascinates me and I believe that’s why this post of yours, JR, says more than even you realized:

“I KNOW how to judge fish AKCA style. I was taught by the best. I get it. I can do it and I can predict what 90% of all AKCA judges are going to pick within the top five fish at any show. It’s just a matter of understanding a mind set. BUT, I can not do that with the Japanese yet.”

While I admire your motivation and I applaud your quest to achieve oneness with Japanese koi cognoscente, I don’t think it’s about “yet.” I think it’s about “never.”

[Tim C]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop While I admire your motivation and I applaud your quest to achieve oneness with Japanese koi cognoscente, I don’t think it’s about “yet.” I think it’s about “never.”

Don, why would you say it is about 'never'? Please elaborate?

[KoiCop]

it's not through any fault of JR's. God forbid, the man's a giant amongst us all and his personal journey reminds me of Galahad's quest for The Holy Grail.

I think it’s much simpler (and, conversely, much more complicated) than JR realizes: One would have to be born and reared Japanese. There, I’ve said it and I believe it's that simple. The very essence of what constitutes good, better and best in nishikigoi is culture based.

Like Lawrence did in Arabia, JR can spend many years habituating in the hills and valleys of Japan. But Lawrence returned home an Englishman and JR will always be an Irish-American.

PS - Galahad never found it, either.

[aquitori]

When I watched Judges from different organizations judged it is different.

You have the breeders/dealers at the Shinkokai level
You have the ZNA at the Japanese Hobbyist level
You have the AKCA at the American Hobbyist level
You have a Grant Fujita a private well known Judge not affiliated to any.

Out of these groups, which would want your fish best judged at. Also, why is it that an AKCA judge always in the back seat so to speak when all groups of Judges are judging a show?

Also, we have AKCA Judges who are both AKCA/ZNA Certified who who still tend to judge in the AKCA standard.

[MikeM]

KoiCop: I think you have identified the core issue. There are certain aspects of what is considered "beautiful" that cross cultural lines, but beyond a certain point "beauty" is learned. The underfed models of a contemporary magazine vs the obese ladies of Reubens' fine paintings. But I'd not sell JR short. He's got more than a couple of decades left. Can Waddington "know"? Maybe Brian's immersion will get him there?

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM KoiCop: I think you have identified the core issue. There are certain aspects of what is considered "beautiful" that cross cultural lines, but beyond a certain point "beauty" is learned. The underfed models of a contemporary magazine vs the obese ladies of Reubens' fine paintings. But I'd not sell JR short. He's got more than a couple of decades left. Can Waddington "know"? Maybe Brian's immersion will get him there?

I very much agree. Growing up in central California with a very diverse population, including a multitude of 1st and 2nd generation Japanese, I can honestly say cultural differences can play a huge role in ones appreciation for different things. Japanese and White Anglo Saxon Protestants both eat Sukiaki. WASPS think it special, but in Japanese it is still "Beggars Hash".
Art is much the same, and Koi is an art form.
Japanese art has a look of its own that a typical American can enjoy but have no clue how to critique or understand its cultural significance. Japanese can look at a work of art and tell you what it means and why, but it probably won't help you understand the significance of the next painting. We only know if we like it or not, not what it communicates.
When a typical American (or anyone else in the world outside the orient for that matter) view a koi we see beauty and physicality and if we judge it we generally do so on technical merits influenced by eye appeal. The Japanese will see an expression of art derived from their culture and its form will communicate something that goes beyond technical merit or eye candy. Unless we eventually succede in corrupting Japanese Culture (god forbid) that distinction will remain.