Perfect water conditions for Gosanke

[Tim C]

Quote: Originally Posted by MCA As for other water parameters being better for kohakus as opposed to sanke or showa....I am all ears.

I don't think you can cater a pond to a three varieties of Gosanke to develop to their peak. If so, I am like Michael - ALL EARS

[Regenmeneer]

MCA wrote

"I have never heard anyone fine tuning a water parameter to just one variety of go sanke."

Maybe we should put it the other way around, fine tuning the variety of koi to the water parameters we have?! Most of us will have experienced one or more koi to not live up to their promise, be it beni weakening or sumi not coming through.

Would it not be great to know what variety suits your water best, and bring out their potential. I thought of this a long time ago, but was never able to find an answer as to what parameters would suit what variety. Hope this thread will shed some light......

Regenmeneer

[junglegeorge12]

Papa Bear's comments were right on the mark. He and I agree, just a little different way of saying it. The reason I recommended no deeper than 4 ft was for jnorth's climate (I should have noted that), which I know very well. If his pond is deeper his water temp will be too cold for good growth. Others, depending on climate, face the opposite issue of too much heat and need depth. I am glad Papbear brought that up so noone gets misled on that issue.

Also, I did not broach the subject, I went into detail. The only thing I would have different for the different gosankes is the ph. Maybe slightly harder (or more tolerance with it) for showa. I want to see jnorth take a gc within 5 years, and then do it regularly, and I believe he can.

For your region jnorth, to keep the best strains of algae and spirulina growing, you will probably have to add some full spectrum lights. Which means more than one light. You have seen this same concept if you have have ever had a salt water tank and asked why your pretty things were fading, they probably sold you a new light or different bulb for it. The Japanese breeders use greenhouses alot, the refraction of the sun's light through the material enhances spectrum. But if you live in certain regions, it won't be enough, you will still need to add some lighting.

And no, it is not just food and water, it is what is growing food in the water, light, heat, and b-12 to get them active, hungry, and feeding which means growing. It is all those factors and more combined with dna.

[MCA]

Joel B told me that a breeder ( I forgot which one) told him you want the pond depth to be 2.5 times as deep as you want your nishikigoi to grow long. My first mentor in pond building was Mike Fuller near Ft. Worth. His big pond was 11'. It was full of fantastic fish from Ray. So when I build our new pond here in Atlanta I built it at 8'. More depth, more dilution, slow temp changes. All seem good things to have.

But depth has little to directly to do with the original question of water parameters such as kh, gh, ph, tds, orp....etc. per specfic gosanke variety.

[RayJordan]

I go at the water parameters a little different. I live in San Antonio and have city supplied water from a underground limestone aquafer. Harder more alcaline water would be difficult to find. GH is 350+ ph is 8.3-8.5 and steady as a rock. (no pun intended)

The only way to lower my GH/pH would be to make and blend in reverse osmosis water which I have been unwilling to do. My koi look pretty good and I have won a few top awards as have other koi keepers in my area. So I feel best to leave water GH/pH alone and concentrate on high aeration, low D.O.C.'s, maximum biofiltration (34 CF of filter media for 9,000 gallons) I use settlement tanks from bottom drains and moving bed(kaldenes) and submerged japanese filter mat filtration. Plus on skimmer circuit a bubble bead filter and DIY TT. Depending on what you read I have biofiltration sufficent for 30,000 - 40,000 gallons or 5 lbs of food a day.

If a koi doesn't develop to my liking over the years I donate it ot someone and buy another. I have mostly Gosanke but also a Ochiba, Goshiki, Asagi, and a Ogon.

[junglegeorge12]

There is an old article floating around the net you can find by googling koi pgimentation. It talks about the ph causing diffrerent colors to weaken or strengthen. The guy writing is was an expert on chromatorphes (pigment cells). Lower ph is apparently better for reds and orange. Higher ph better for sumi. I adjusted my ph accordingly and found it helped. It was not the hwole ball of wax, but definitely gave an edge. Now I think I oculd not develop a kohaku to its fullest potential in high ph. Not saying you cannot win a show or have a nice one with high ph, bu tthat is a different issue than developing it to it's fullest potential.

I will let someone else tell you about the relation between ph, algae strains and spirulina types, and acid in the digestive tract and pigment and b-12 absorption. I jus tlisten to folks who I trust, and get more than one such opinion listent o where they agree, take it and apply it. I have had it pretty good since. I have not had one kohaku fade since doing what I wrote before, only improve, most much better than I could have before.

As for pond depth, if the only issue is depth and growth, I heard 2 or 2.5 also. However, a more critical issue is temperature during growing season especially. If there are heaters and other heating methods available, then use them and keep the pond warm like Maurice's. If not, by reducing depth you increase temp in the summer.

HVAC has for decades been using only 6 or 8 ft deep buried coils to efficiently cool. Just swim in a deep pool, the temp drop from top to bottom is very noticeable.

The oxygentaion is also an extremely important issue.

[junglegeorge12]

Just this week I had an email exchange with food manufacturer who said the same things I had heard from others before. I had an issue years ago from a problem with too much yellow pigments, changed to no enhancing food, andit lessened but did not go away. So I did some research. found out the real rpoblem was the algaes in the pond and some over hanging flowers. Moved the flowers, and made some changes to encourage other strains of algae. Problems disappeared and good things appeared within a month.

[GazKoi]

OK then just to get you going soft or hard water???????

Soft for growing & Hard for showing Or visa versa???? but what do you guys thinks the best balance???

[MikeM]

I am not so sure pH is as directly related to Sumi development as is often said. Articles written in Japan about 20 years ago on the structure of chloroplasts in carp indicate that the silicon content of the water is the important factor for containment of the black pigment. Higher silicon levels will be coincident with sandy soils, which tend to be more alkaline and to release more calcium, magnesium, etc., resulting in harder water. Whether these articles were correct in their suggestions, I cannot say. It is consistent with references I've seen to the mudponds deemed best for Showa having more sand content in the mud. (But I'll not assume cause and effect.) But, if this idea is correct, the normal hobbyist methods of altering pH and hardness will not add the missing silica. Oftentimes with Sumi it is a matter of age of the fish, so artificially altering water chemistry may not affect Sumi development, but coincidental maturation of the fish could give the impression it had an impact.

On the other hand, there seems to be a clear consensus that softer water is best for Beni development. Soft water tends to have a lower pH, but I'd not assume that artificially lowering the pH by itself will give the same benefits as diluting the dissolved mineral content with RO water or the like.

We can presumably identify ideal water parameters for particular pigment if we did sufficient field research of Japanese mudponds. That water, however, is naturally produced from rain and snow seeping through soils and flowing over rocks...the equivalent taking distilled water and re-building it with mineral additions. Adding chemicals to water to react with the minerals in the water for the purpose of obtaining different pH readings mimics the natural water, but it is not the same as the natural water.

The structure of water is a complex subject.

[junglegeorge12]

soft for me.

mike I have heard some say the ph makes a difference, and my experience is the same.

As for the silica thing, never heard that, but it does coincide with advice I have received about hardeneing metals and silicas content, but still keeping the wate soft for growth from some I respect.

JR might know something about the silica aspect. Where is he when you need him?

sand makes some sense, but it also will affect what algaes grow in abundance. so is it the aglaes making the difference or the actual silica?

I have never tried to develop a showa. I have heard those things stated from sources I really trust though. I have followed that same advice for kohakus, and it has proven true and invaluable.

I remember someone posting something about a breeder and comments on silica too Mike, but do not remember the exact source.