growth hormone / steriods / ethics

[Brutuscz]

...As far as ethics, I was a competitive bodybuilder for 7 years...so I know the subject all too well. Nothing fair or ethical about using drugs to increase performance. It changes the whole level of the playing field. Then others, who would rather not use these drugs because of health and safety, are left behind. Eventually though, more will use them. They will feel the need to use them, just to keep up and make things fair(this becomes the justification). It becomes a vicous cycle...of what is the next better drug (growth hormone, insulin, a stronger steroid? stacking different types..higher dosages...longer cycles!!). It will get to the point where if your not using them...don't even bother competing. I can look in my "crystal ball" and promise everyone here, it will ruin our game in the long run.

[JohnBender]

I think people have to be realistic with what they bought. That is the first thing, the second thing is look in your pond and search deep into yourself and say "DO I have the skill to produce something BIG in my pond?"

40" in the days would have meant millions of dollars for hobbyist who reach that mark. You already have a line of fish that grows big, that is the Matsunosuke bloodline, so why use steriods? Can see why anybody would use it, bored maybe? That just shows that the person doing it has no skill to do it naturally. JMHO.

[James P]

OK, I kept quite until the people angle on this conversation faded. Here it is--There were NO one meter GOSANKE of any type of quality until Matsunosuke produced one ( two actually) and Momo grow it. The second one meter sanke is now also dead. These high class meter plus gosanke are So rare that at one time it was urban myth that Shinkokai would pay the first breeder who made one- one million dollars!

This is ALL against the back drop of ALL gosanke getting larger in general over the last decade. It is now common place to see 83- 95 cm kohaku and sanke. They all tend to be -- Matsunosuki line, or a sensuke cross of another line.

After reading two threads here, I can see there is a real confusion between breeder 'yorijo' and blood line. Some one already stated this but- there are only kohaku and sanke blood lines. There are also yorijo brand names. And most importantly, many famous breeders breed OTHER breeders blood lines! You can not , for instance, find too many who do not use dainichi bloodlines. And when it comes to sanke- they all use matsunosuki for size.

A very good breeder for instance is Igarashi Kazuto- his best fish tend to be sensuke/dainichi mixes. But right down the road from him lives Yamamatsu, who IS Matsunosuke and BREEDS Matsunosuki fish. And a town away is Dainichi who of course breeds the Dainichi line as well as using injections of other lines in test breedings. And Torazo no longer breeds true Torazo lines! It all can get confusing but the point is- learn that breeders and famous lines are two different conversations.

Back to size. I know of NO one meter plus gosanke in America! I've only seen a handful in all of Japan? 93, 90, 97, 95, 91, 98 cm! Getting 'almost' common, but 100 plus? Very very rare.

My question and quest these days, is to try and understand how these fish of today are getting so large in such a short period of time? Genetics? Husbandry, including diet? Environment? Heat? Extreme outcross leading to hybrid vigor? Magoi?

Koi, carp, reptiles- all are called indeterminate growers by zoologists. Meaning, they grow all their lives. Albeit at an every slower ratio and pace as they mature passed breeding age. Remember, egg production and gonad development are another form of growth.

I have also wondered about grow hormone ( not sex hormone ( steroid), Luke) as there were articles from years back and some game fish carp breeders are on record as using them. I’ll dig up the UK article where a cross over game fish breeder was using growth hormone on fishing contest game carp and also suggested he would experiment on ornamental carp.

[gregbickal]

Quote: Back to size. I know of NO one meter plus gosanke in America! I've only seen a handful in all of Japan? 93, 90, 97, 95, 91, 98 cm! Getting 'almost' common, but 100 plus? Very very rare.

I think there is one, I wish the owner would post proof and not keep us waiting.

[Bamm Bamm]

I'd do it where can I get some growth hormones/fish roids... I'll try it on my Butterfly fish and name him Arnold.....=)



IMO--- I don't think anyone can say there is and isn't any fish of the 1 meter size.. If you know of 2 then I bet you there's a few thousand more that you don't know about.. there's always people that have had ponds for YEARS and have never been to a show or post on the net or have any desire to... It wouldn't surprise me if some of them might have just what everyone is talking about..

on the same token my biggest koi is 7" and I have a 10,000gallon pond so I don't know shit.. I only have rainwater in the pond still... Ruben when we hooken up that big 1500g settling chamber you brought over=)

[joe bauer]

how about crowding young fish. i have heard that if you raise young fish in a crowded situation, they will give off hormones which delay sexual maturity, thus giving the fish more time to enjoy the explosive growth they have before sexual maturity.