Israeli Koi breeders & others....where do they rank?

[luke frisbee]

that male looks wonderful and still looks like the Sumi is going to improve?

[junglegeorge12]

IN part you are right regenmeer, in part I see it differently.

If a Japanese breeder has been doing it for 30 years, he has had time to make progress in certain areas, regardless of oyagoi. An american with the same level of oyagoi but only ten years, will see results getting cloes but not up to par with Japan's 20 year more experienced breeder. The other advantage they have is their mentoring system for breeders and employees.

With mroe time, better fifancial base, you can feed better, filter better, and also focus on one type of koi. All the main breeders in Japan do. Most american breeders breed whatever they can. It is hard to dedicate a facility to one thing if it is also dedicated to many things. Being aorund for 30 years give you the customer base and financial base you need to be able to hone in on one type. I personally, think american breeding is now starting to trend towards breeders specializing in one type. I think within ten years we are going to see much higher qulaity results as a direct result of that.

We are also learning about water, filtration, and selection, and so are the hobbiests. It is very important that hobbiests are learning to keep softer better water with lower tds and higher oxygen levels. You cannot in two or even ten generations get rid change oyagoi's adaptations. It is impossible to change whether koi likes hard or soft water in our lifetime. It will take 100 years to do start to do that. Fact is we need to learn to keep water more well suited for the oyagoi we have now, not expect them to change in less than 100-500 years. That is like sticking an oriental person in Canada and expecting their offspring to be white in a few generations. Aint gonna happen. Adaptation takes centuries and milleniums, not a few generations.

[carolyn swanson]

It is true that it takes a long time to change a characteristic--such as a Chinese person in Canada--if breeding is done on a random basis, but changes can be achieved much quicker by breeding, say, for size, color, etc. to the largest, most colorful, etc. to each other. Cattle breeders have selectively bred for such things as feed efficiency, heat tolerance, hornlessness, etc. And, as we all know, fish have many more offspring from which to select. By selecting only the fish who exhibit the characteristics that we wish, much can be accomplished in a few generations. We can notice quite significant changes in size, color quality, and conformation in the last ten years. Even middle-of-the-road fish today are superior to show winners ten years ago. Why not select as well for fish that maintain their quality in high ph, hard water.

I don't know what percentage of Japanese fish are sold to the U.S., but, if it is significant, perhaps the Japanese would be wise to take our waters into consideration in their breeding programs. My experience in Japan is limited, but I have noticed that there are dealers who don't even visit some very well-regarded breeders because their fish develop shimis, change colors, or just lose their intensity of color in local waters.

It will probably be up to the U.S. (or U.K.) breeders to accomplish any changes as they have the conditions for it and they have access to more scientific information and are willing to use it. The Japanese have tradition and "the eye," but very few are motivated to use "science." This may level the playing field a bit. There should be some very interesting information coming out of the upcoming seminar in Atlanta.

[PapaBear]

The koi world has changed much, not only through expansion to places like the US, Europe, Israel, S.A.,....., but within Japan as well. I think it is worthwhile to remind ourselves from time to time that many of the now "established" varieties did not exist 50yrs ago. For that matter, a few hundred years ago the colorful bloodlines we now cherish were nothing more than a few "freaks" in a pond full of food fish. This affirms the point Carolyn made about selective breeding. Not only for the strengthening of old lines, but the creation of new ones.
As to breeders outside of Japan being able to compete in the marketplace, the high end market is tied to bloodlines with established reputations based on generations of quality. As has already been mentioned, the big name breeder gets the bigger price because of reputation, even when a lesser known has equal or even superior koi. The established name/bloodline gives the buyer an added sense of value/security, even if it is only imagined value. A Malaysian aquaintance of mine just purchased an absolutely stunning Kohaku from Maruboshi at a very good price because the breeder is a comparative "unknown" alongside Sakai or Maruyama.
No doubt there are American breeders producing koi of such quality as well, but where are the generations of "trophies" to establish the bloodline in stone? That kind of reputation takes generations of winning, breeding, winning, and more breeding of more winners.
It also means that American, Israeli, S.A., European breeders who truly want to compete in the marketplace at the highest level will have to cull even more deeply than our Japanese counterparts in order to ONLY bring koi to the marketplace that are of show quality. That means a long term commitment in terms of financial resources while operating in relative obscurity for many years. Not an easy way to make a living.

[MikeM]

Jungle: I understand your point, but think Carolyn is correct. Scholars of evolution have fairly uniformly concluded that evolution occurs not incrementally, but in spurts. Traits that are not harmful in a particular environment spread in a gene pool. Then a change in environment occurs for which a useless trait is well-suited, and that trait proliferates. Culling koi can be like the environmental change. IF there is Hi well-suited for hard water conditions, and IF it shows it's superiority within the first two growing seasons, a breeder with a good eye could likely advance that trait over a few generations....maybe 25 years if consistently culled?

[junglegeorge12]

mike, she is talking about a different issue and does not even realize it. Genetic selection for breeding does not cause adaptation. Selection to focus on colors and pattersn and sizes that exist are one thing, causing an adaption that does not exist is quite another. Crossbreeding and getting new things is easy, it is not adaptation. Crossbreeding was required to get jumbos, with magoi, they did not 'adapt' by sticking them in bigger ponds. Two different things. There are no koi to breed with that like hard high ph water. Maybe we can turn them into salt water fish too huh?

Koi will always do better in softer water, which is why we have all changed over to new filtration techniques over the last decade or so. Are there any koi that do handle it better? Sure. Are there any that do not do better in softer water? Nope.

Real adaptation takes centuries.

[Dwight]

If American breeders are using typical hard , high pH water and selecting/culling the same as Jazpanese breeders they will , unintentionally , develop Koi suited for these waters. it is impossible not to. The water is the defining ecosystem and the fish will of necessity adapt to the water. The same thing happened with Discus in the 70's and 80's. Even though discus breeders claim to have intentionally adapted their fish to hard , high pH water , it was accidental as the only fish that reproduced were the ones that could survive and reproduce in this water.

Dwight

[carolyn swanson]

Dwight & Mike, I think that I'm in love with you.

Thanks for understanding.

[junglegeorge12]

I stress again the difference between crossbreeding to make certain characterisitics the norm and brand new adaptations. One takes months to years, the other decades and centuries.

Discus already existed that lived in higher ph water, they simply cross bred.

There are guys who can do it by changing dna. Just not koi breeders in the US. There is a research group here who can go in and play with dna. They breed totally transparent discus and other fish to study vascular systems to work on responses to medications and develop better treatments for tropical fish illnesses. Are there any koi breeders out there that can play with fish dna??? Not without a multimillion dollar grant and some seriously experienced research scientists.

[Steve W]

Hi all
A top women in the UK told a friend of mine that all Israeli koi are infected with
KHV can any one enlighten me.... I have been wanting to talk about this for months.


Steve W