Israeli Koi breeders & others....where do they rank?

[MikeM]

I think that comment is misleading. As noted on another thread, the Israeli breeders are inoculating their koi with a vaccine developed in Israel. The vaccine uses live (weakened) virus. There is concern that the vaccine could result in koi which are immune (at least for some period of years), but are also carriers. I do not believe there is sufficient experience to draw any conclusions. Obviously, the Israeli breeders using the vaccine believe there is sufficient experience to conclude the vaccinated koi are not typhoid marys. Until we know much more about KHV, I doubt many high-end koikeepers are going to take any chance whatsoever, but they'd not likely be purchasing Israeli koi anyway.

[luke frisbee]

and it can be easily interpreted that the Israelis are in it for the long haul.....they know vaccinating their koi will cause fewer sales for years to come, but they must believe this is the best route to take...
if the vaccine is safe in a year or two it will be a non-issue, and if KHV keeps whacking ponds around the world Vaccinated koi could become the rage.

[junglegeorge12]

That is what certain dealers and breeders want folks to think, don't buy isreali, buy from this other place......

truth is not all israeli breeders are did it, and I have heard or seen no solid evidence that indicates they still are.

Other truth is there are no facts that have verified that:

A- The vaccinations cause any harm.

B-More than a few breeders in Israel ever did it.

C-That it is still being done, it was their first response to the problem in an effort to gain market share by declaring their koi vaccinated. Folks interested in the market shares of others have spun that on them and declared it as though it causes khv when it is just an anti syrum that has things that produce khv antibodies in it. Kind of like they inject a small amount of chicken poix in you to vaccinate you, does not make you a spreader of chicken pox, but you would test positive for chicken pox antibodies.

It is called twisting facts for pr purposes. Almost every time I have heard the runs on that smear campaign behind it is someone selling koi that sees Israeli koi as competition that needs to be gotten rid of. Pathetic way to do business.

Frankly, after Momotaro and others I know that are tesing, Israel is the second most trustworthy source, they are testing, and dealing with it agressively. Israeli koi are decent, better in quality than US koi, but not quite as good as Japanese. However, a very good Israeli koi will cost quite a bit less than a very good Japanese koi.

Like my uncle used to say, don't believe everything you hear and only half of what you see. Truth is noone really knows who has khv and hwo doesn't, everyone keeps finding out the hard way. If you smear one nation you have to smear em all. there have been cases in England, Israel, Japan, the US, Malysia, and everywhere else.

It is a rampant problem in food carp industries since they don't care if they sell and infected koi to you to eat. The FDA doesn't care because it won't affect you if you eat it. Most magoi, our friendly jumbo helpers, are from the food carp industry. That is one of the reasons why some Japanese breeders refuse to cross magoi into their line.

[Dwight]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 Discus already existed that lived in higher ph water, they simply cross bred.

If I'm not mistaken all discus ( sp Synphysodon ) originated from the Rio Negro and it's tributaries ( a part of the Amazon basin ) . The entire system is composed of very soft acid ( less than 6 in many cases ) water. German hobbiest in the 60's managed to breed them in soft acid water. The first successful American breeder was Jack Watley in Florida who had access to soft acid water.

Also evolution , whether natural or induced by selective breeding , can and sometimes does occur very rapidly. Witness the poodle. Minature and toy poodles have been around for less than two centuries and there is a greater difference between standard and toy poodles than koi tollerant of hard , alkaline water and those that demand soft acid water.

Dwight

PS Carol , sorry but I'm married , now about Mike , ....I don't know.....pH

[junglegeorge12]

http://www.discusland.com/default.asp?cat=his&con=0
http://freespace.virgin.net/m.pickering/Part%20one.htm

Here are a few articles on discus. Reality is they were found in many places in S america along the amazon river. The first ones found were in Rio Negro in the amazon. They still have not adapted to high ph and die like mad due to it. With selective breeding and crossbreeding they have improved, but most hobbiests still kill them with high ph hard water.

TRoy poodles and changing koi chemistry are two different things, not so sure why you keep making irrelevant comparisons. Small poodles existed, and tehy simply bred them smaller by selective breeding. No chemistry changes involved in that other than perhaps growth hormones or injections to stop groth hormones from forming. So where are these discus that survive in ph of 7.4-8.4?

Also, discus breeding attampts date back to the 1800's, over 100 years ago.

http://www.wattleydiscus.com/jack.htm
The above is an article about Jack Wattley on his own site. He is a business man, selling discus. He acheived new color results from parent selection and crossbreeding. He should contact the guys down here about their dna research. They can probably create new species together, even transparent fish. Then you can check your fish's heart rate!

[luke frisbee]

JG,
If a fish was transparent how could we check its heart rate

And as to believing....two things...
First it is "don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you read"..but that was before the internet....now it should just read, "Only believe half of what you see in person.


and, " Everyone has to believe something. I believe I'll go fishing."

[junglegeorge12]

The only thing visible is the vascular system, you can see the heart beating.

[luke frisbee]

Oooooh That kind of transparent fish
Sorta like the invisible man......never did understand how his hair, poop, and snot went "invisible"

So these Transparent fish...their poop is see through to?


When I worked as a pet department Manager at Wal-mart (waaay back in college), when all the fish would die in a tank and I had scooped them out people would stare into the tank...If they asked if fish were in there, I 'd reply, "Yes there are glass fish in there, keep looking."
And they would..and every so often someone would say, "I see them!"

[junglegeorge12]

What they did was identitfy and pluck out the pigment portion of the dna, so they have no pigment. You can see their blood, gills, and they look kind of pink/clear, like the edge of your finger if you shine a light against it. You can see all the veins and arteries, the whole vascular system, and a little bit of poop in their intestine, and food in their stomach, although the stomach and organs are kind of a darker reddish pink and not nearly as transparent as the rest of the body. You have to see them. I will see if I can get a pic from them to post here for all you invisibility lovers.

Yeah, the old invisible man. I guess he had a chemical reaction that spread through the waste in his intestine, or some very painful enemas.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by maryland_ponder I know that the Japanese breeders rule the world but what of the distant second & third placers. A local supplier here imports from Israel & the stock looks to be very high quality. Here in the US we have some domestic breeders that stand up pretty well i think. There are also some Japanese/US breeders that were directly setup by there families from Japan to breed fish here in the US. What are your opinions on this subject? I know there are some very experienced Koi keepers here so I am interested to hear what you all think. I also am interested as most people are in what you get for your money as well. rg

What I want to see is some "Show" quality magnoy....does anyone have any examples?