Israeli Koi breeders & others....where do they rank?

[maryland_ponder]

I know that the Japanese breeders rule the world but what of the distant second & third placers. A local supplier here imports from Israel & the stock looks to be very high quality. Here in the US we have some domestic breeders that stand up pretty well i think. There are also some Japanese/US breeders that were directly setup by there families from Japan to breed fish here in the US. What are your opinions on this subject? I know there are some very experienced Koi keepers here so I am interested to hear what you all think. I also am interested as most people are in what you get for your money as well. rg

[MikeM]

I cannot speak about Israeli koi. I do not have the experience. I think it clear that overall the Japanese are on a different, higher plane. However, an individual domestic koi may surpass most Japanese-bred nisai, but still fall well short of the best of Japan. And, there are individual domestic breeders who surpass many Japanese breeders (of lower-end koi), but none who are in the same league as the best of Japan. Time will come, however, when our best domestic breeders will be producing as good as anything Japan produces today ... The real question is: How far will the Japanese have progressed at that time? The domestic breeders like Mat McCann and Brady Brandwood ... and others... are a determined lot. (And Maurice in Britain.) One of them will one day be in the spotlight.

[junglegeorge12]

I agree with Mike, and also would add that as US and other breeders focus more on particular lines and types (i.e. Brady's showas), we will see higher quality develop faster. The slow curve of US koi selling for more is actually what makes that financially more likely.

[carolyn swanson]

When we talk about the Japanese ideal and domestic breeders, I think that we may be missing an inportant point about our local breeders. Wonderful fish are bred in Japan, but the end result (sumi quality, sheen, shiro, etc) is based on being raised in Japanese waters which have different parameters than those in the U.S. or wherever. To keep these fish in top form, extraordinary means are used to duplicate the Japanese waters. Frequently, the fish deteriorate in quality once they reach our ponds. The domestic breeders are aiming for the same qualities as the Japanese, but the fish will be adapted to the conditions in the U.S.--high ph, hard water, etc.--through selective breeding. It would be helpful if they were adapted to chlorine and nitrites-- LOL
It will take several generations of fish, but I believe that we can have the same quality of fish, but the fish will be happier in our waters. I think that we should support our local breeders, keep our minds open, and not dismiss their efforts.

[dick benbow]

I think there have been some excellent points made here on this thread and it shows how much our contributors are growing in knowledge.

In our hobby, there are water gardeners who would be more than happy to have koi from any producer that had color and was reasonably priced. They love their koi as pets and are content with this stage of the hobby.

for those who love to compete, buying higher end koi is a challenge. It takes koi from the best producers. Top end competitors also have to have the best in facilities. these are world class athletes and need the best of facilities to advance.To say it's an expensive hobby would be an understatement.

then there is the vast majority of wannabees, who do the best with the finances, knowledge and facilities that they can provide.

I can't deny that i enjoy pointing out my hosokai asagi's to those who visit. It's a status symbol. The asagi that Mat at Quality koi produced for me is every bit as good.

I think each wannabee has to decide thru knowledge that buying whatever name produced koi they have access to...will only be as good as their ability to choose, raise and position that koi to be as good as it can get be.

if I could wish my very best for each of you it would be that if you looked at say sanke's from all producers ( all of which were unknown) and all were priced the same so that wasn't any issue.....you could pick the best fish!

I say that because on trips to japan I have seen people pay 2x what a fish is worth because it's name brand and yet because the other breeder was unknow and his very best tategoi was half the price of the big name producer
they bought the more expensive version just to be sure. Folks, when you get to the point where you can pick the best fish based on what you see, you'll be able to find them among many producers.

[MCA]

One thing you may get from Israel is a fish that has been injected with a live virus KHV serium. Ask a koi health expert such as at UGA and see what they say about that. Would they take one home? No one knows if such koi can/will carriers of the virus to other fish. It is very unnecessary risk to all koi to be moving around koi that have had ANY exposure to KHV.

So if those koi are not at top levels, and have had KHV exposure, I don't understand the reasons for purchasing them. If you want less expensive koi, there are many excellent domestic breeders. If you want top quality, there are Japanese imports.

[maryland_ponder]

I think Carolyn makes a valid point about the differences in water chemistry that I had not really thought of. I wonder if because of those differences the dometics can use those differencs to their advantage in certain fish?

Dick i think you encapsulated the buyers as well as the sellers points extremely well. I think that men/women of normal means cant afford the prices of the truely elite Japanese breeders & it leads them to to other purchasing choices. I think that in itself provides support to the "alternate" breeders here in the US (& elsewhere).

As far as US breeders surpassing the Japanese or catching up to thier skill & diligence in the trophy world I do not see that happening any time soon. I do wonder though from another perspective...how many possible top quality show fish per Japanese breeder compare with the domestic breeders here in the US? For example if the Japaenese breeder produces 5000 fish how many of those compare to the same 5000 fish bred here?

[luke frisbee]

yah just need to understand the feeder system for pro football.
There is ONE pro player From Africa (maybe 2, maybe 3 But I know of one).

Is there just one African that is genetically good enough to play football at the USA Pro Level? NO only a few were recognized and given the chance.
well same thing with koi.

The japanese have tremendous resources for developing their potential koi/athletes...
Like us in football; we start with peewee football and that number is culled and culled and culled, but at each level the players are given a superior atmosphere to grow when compared to africa. As well as superior coaches here in the USA.
But at the college level Pigskin Sembetsu occurs in earnest....(do they have college in Africa> and how many have Good ol American Football?).
So Our colleges are the premier facilities (much like the large breeder facilities in Japan), and all the sub par football player have to buy tickets to sit on the edge of the Number One mud ponds on Saturday afternoons and watch the best tategoi develop.
While in Africa there are no Koi facilities and all the fry are raised "wild" except the few that get brought to the states.

And here the very best Athletes Compete in "The National" on SUNDAYS, if they survive the Pro draft sembetsu, and florish under the care and guidance of their new owners.

Then there is NFL Europe...which is what WE are in the koi world.

The best system is in Japan, therefore they can choose and develop the best talent. And in the States we are like NFL Europe. We have athletes that have the potential to play, they just never get identified ( American breeder's fault) nor get placed in a facility that will maximize their potentials ( buyers fault)>
And because the Owners of the best ponds want to have the best koi and they can afford them, they buy the status symbol, easily-recognized potential from the Japanese.
I on the other hand am trying to become the Green Bay Packers of the USA Koi Hobbyists.... gren bay is owned by the fans. I have built (am building) as good a koi pond/training facility as I can in hopes that "local" (non-japanese) talent can compete with the japanese.....it 'll all come down to me getting my hands on some great tategoi. (I'll be trying to get alot of hidden talent in the free agency market coming directly out of college.)

it is a Japanese competition...but I bet we got more genetically superior children for the sport of Sumo wrestling too.

I would hope that others see this as viable, and start developing "local talent" in an attempt to have a better, healthier, local source for koi.

[maryland_ponder]

Not that i need a reason LOl but I'll drink to that Luke!!!

[Regenmeneer]

Interesting discussion.

IMHO, there is another reason why breeders outside of Japan have to struggle harder than their Japanese counterparts. And thats the fact that most people are unwilling to pay for a koi of equal quality the same price when it was bred by a domestic breeder as they would for a koi bred by a Japanese breeder.

This makes it harder for the domestic breeder to compete with his Japanese counterpart, because he will get paid less for the same product. This will lead to him being unable to buy the same grade of oyagoi than his Japanese colleage, and/or he will be forced to sell more koi to earn a living, and therfor can not cull as stringently. Both of these will result in lower quality koi produced, and/or making it nearly impossible to catch up.

IMHO, if we want domestic breeders to produce better quality koi and give them a chance to catch up, we must support them by paying the price!

As to the original question posted, Israeli koi were imported during the nineties into northwestern Europe. They were better quality to price in the lower quality classes because less stringent culling and cheaper transportation costs. Butt after the massive import of KHV in 1998, generally believed to have come from Israel, and the fact that the koi in Israel will be injected with a KHV serum, no respectable koi dealer will sell them. They may still be sold in gardencentres.

As for domestic breeders, there are some here in Holland. Some breed for gardencentres, and their koi are "nice and colorfull". There are some that are more serious, and these are dealers of Japanese koi that started breeding. They are very respectable dealers, but they will all tell you that there is no substitute for Japanese bred koi. Even though one of them has bought this years All Japan Male Mature Champion to breed with.

http://www.aenc-koi.com/koi_worldclass.htm

Regenmeneer