Water ecosystem question

[kingkong]

Just when I was convinced the Japanese SOFT water was the reason they are so superior in koi development compared to hard water in USA and UK, I am reading information now to the contrary.
Soft water ponds have low mineral weathering, similar to rainwater in chemistry. But Oligotrophic in their prestine condition. Plant life and fish production is limited.
Hard water ponds tend to be Eutrophic, productive and rich in plant nutrients. A biodiverse environment with greater fish populations and a greater chance to grow and enjoy the natural food chain.
So which direction is one to go here? Mr. M wants soft water but the biology book says soft water is deficient for aquaculture's needs.

[bekko]

I think it depends on whether you are talking about a koi display pond, or a koi production pond. What is good for one, may not be good for the other.

In a clear-water display pond, soft water will keep the beni and the sheen brighter. In a green-water mud pond being managed for high natural productivity, some water hardness and alkalinity will maximize productivity.

I believe (or at least suspect) that the Japanese apply agricultural lime to their ponds in the spring to insure there is enough alkalinity and to get good primary production.

-steve hopkins

[mynamy1]

Hi KK, just wonder if you've kept discus and chiclids? Well, not together though. Discus thrives in soft water and the opposite is for the other. Same here, koi absorb oxygen and mebabolize food better in low TDS (GH & KH are in 2-digit mg/l) and high ORP water. Shiro and beni are also benefited greatly with the soft water. So that is the way it is, koi physiology my guessz?. Unless you are smart enough to alter their gene? Porcelain shiro and silk-like beni in hard water of the USA? Then helping Brady and Brett to control the GC trophies?

The term "living water" (of the mud ponds), mentioned by Japanese breeders and JR, is also excellent for koi for growth and healings too. That is all I can say about "living water" as my deep comprehension of the concept is not there as yet. MA Le

[kingkong]

I think we concentrate on making a koi to look finished which slows down growth immensely. Maybe you need the soft water to grow them and the hard water to finish them. I think a discus is a cichlid. I guess it depends on where the fish have evolved and the chemical conditions of their environments.

[mynamy1]

No, no KK. You got it in reverse! The concentration in nishikigoi is to grow them (female) big. As the maximum physical size is near, the skin development would start in the "finishing " process. Both phases of size and, later, skin development need soft water but for the different reasons. Are we in tune with each other, KK? MA Le

[kingkong]

A little more reading and this. The ultimate way to grow big koi as per Momotaro, Takigawa and Izeki is to keep water hardness below 50 ppm with TDS below 75. As in ppm of (Calcium Carbonate) 0-75 soft , 75-150 moderate hard,
330+ very hard. I think Steve's statement of two different functions for pond water makes more sense then ever to me now. To accomplish full growth potential of koi in a garden show pond is not going to happen. Once again, you just can't have it both ways.

check out www.ozekoi.com/Nurture%20your%20water.pdf

[tewa]

Hey KK

I live in a pretty hard water country (when i was in perth) carbonate hardness KH and GH were usually around 5DH of each TDS from tap 550 ppm.

Koi grow very slow in this water around 1 to 2cm a month maybe 2.5cm if you are lucky.

Switching to soft water of around 50 to 80ppm TDS, with only 1.5dH of KH and GH gave growths of 4 to 6cm per month.

This is not with every fish but majority of fish 80% that are tosais grew at this rate. Even in a small 1 ton pond.

Mike Snaden in UK has customers using the same systems and achieving 65 ti 68cm nisai in 18ton pond. Cliff has even grown a 70cm nisai that is momotaro rate

Genetics is very important the japanese have been breeding koi in soft water for so long their koi have been refined to grow well in low tds soft water. Over the years they have refined their bloodlines for the body shape, beni, and growth rate in soft water. In hard water of over 300ppm the beni is very hard and the lustre of the skin suffers. But if you breed long enough you will find some koi that can have great hi and lustre even in hard water, but majority of the koi wont and they definitely dont grow as fast.

Anybody that has the luxury of buying imported koi from japan should not take for granted the possibility of owning a genetically refined koi. Here in australia I am able to grow tosais at 4 to 6cm a month for tosai but the gene pool here limits me to achieving this rate up to 40 to 45cm, and with most koi that grow at that rate their hi plate suffer as the beni is not elastic enough to acompany the fast growth . How I wish for better genes, for koi that have the potential to grow to 55 to 60cm as tosai

[mynamy1]

Yeah, I read the article from ozekoi web long time ago.

Do you notice the big flaw when only low TDS was mentioned?

Low TDS + O2 depleted water > dead koi

Low TDS + low O2 + low T > so so growth

Low TDS + sat. O2 + opt. T > superior growth & skin

Oxygen and temperature are the two components of ORP.

KK, stick to the real gun, JR, for koi shake! MA Le

ps. do you know that the keys O, R and P of JR's keyboard have worned out after several thousand strokes?