Flow thru watercourse with lined ponds without Filtration

[Rowly]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear Bio in the streams is not needed, but strategically placed stones will give you some great aeration along the way from pool to pool with all that splashing going on . A question I don't think you ever answered (on the other forum). Did you ever test the ph and hardness of your lake water? That kind of info can be very valuable when making your preferred fish selections as some types perform much better with lower ph/gh while others may benefit if it is a bit higher. In closed systems we can at least attempt to manupulate those numbers to our advantage but in your situation you will be at the mercy of nature at work in the lake. Is the gravel more limestone type or high iron content?

Good Points Larry:

Back in 2002 when I bought the property and house I tested the water and I believe the PH was around 7.2 and hardness is a little high.....our well water is 27 grains hard ....same ground water as the lake....no limestone here just granite, harder type gravels and sands , mostly "B" gravel with some iron content indeed......is this a future problem for koi in general or better for them?????

Rowly

[junglegeorge12]

With the rocks I woudl not put any in the ponds. Larger ones along the edges of the stream and to create aerating waterfalls would be good for the lower ponds. The bacteria you need will grow on liner as well as rocks. If you want to add a biological filter for bacteria between ponds, then I would make a shower at one of the falls.

[Rowly]

Jungle george:

Why is it not recommended to put rounded and weathered rocks/stones in lined ponds with koi for my application????? Thanks

Rowly

[KoiCop]

for the same reason we don't let our grandchildren play with our dinner forks and steak knives.

Frankly, the preponderance of members on this site are interested in the breeding, owning, growing on, conditioning and showing of top quality koi -- mostly from Japan. These koi are an expensive investment for most of us and we go to great lengths to keep them from harm. Even a minor scar can totally ruin a substantial investment. Furthermore, rocks trap mulm which in turn harbors parasites and anareobic bacteria which attack our koi. Same with plants.

We very strongly tend not to have rocks, gravel or plants in our ponds -- although some do. Nor do we tend to collect disposable koi.

This hobby is large and interests are varied. Not everyone wants to drive a sportscar and that's OK. You have a dream, and that's wonderful, so pursue it by all means. But it's clear that your ponding setup won't be designed with the same elements, for the same purpose or with the same type of koi in mind.

Wishing you the best of luck,

[maryland_ponder]

You also may want to consider a settling pond at the begining of your water input. This way you may not have to worry so much about muck at the bottom of your ponds. What will you do when it rains & the lake becomes filled with sediments? Will you shut down the pump until the water clears or do you have an alternate form of recirculation you use? As for rocks I theres no big deal placing them in the streams that connect the various ponds just dont impede the waters movement too much.

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rowly Good Points Larry: Back in 2002 when I bought the property and house I tested the water and I believe the PH was around 7.2 and hardness is a little high.....our well water is 27 grains hard ....same ground water as the lake....no limestone here just granite, harder type gravels and sands , mostly "B" gravel with some iron content indeed......is this a future problem for koi in general or better for them????? Rowly

Koi with a lot of red color (hi, beni) prefer lower ph and softer water, which is hard to come by in N. America. Your ph is very good and the hardness is manageable at 27gpg. Their overall health should be good but the luster of their skin may be less than perfect due to the hardness. That being said, your water conditions are much better than most people I know who manage to raise some very attractive Koi.
My Koi are "pond pets" rather than extremely expensive "show koi", but I still strive to provide them with a setting that is healthy and injury free. I think you will find that rocks in a pond wind up adding nothing as they are too deep to add much aesthetically and the ones that are shallow enough to see get mossy with carpet algae anyway. The real aesthetic and water quality benefits are truly seen in the hardscape around your ponds and in the waterfalls and streambed currents (mini-rapids ) you create as you sculpt your personal paradise . With the pond bottom drains you have planned any accumulation of mulm in the streams should be miniscule, especially with 5000gph cascading in a turbulent flow.

[MikeM]

Given the flow of water you propose, I'd guess that rocks on the edges of the stream and a few large ones in the stream to create an artistic appearance and gurgling sounds could work. But, you definitely do not want submerged stones in any part of the system for health reasons. They will harbor "bad things". Besides, over the course of a year or two, algae will cover everything submerged. The stream can be a beautiful feature with the right plantings alongside. You won't miss the rock under water.

My main concern with your idea is with the potential for disease affecting the game fish in the lake being communicated to your pet koi and vice versa; and any spawning will result in koi fry going into the lake. This could cause an ecosystem problem for the lake. I'd recommend that you keep only males. Less health concerns, less expense.

BTW, what is the temperature of the lake in summer?

[junglegeorge12]

Mike is right on with the ecosystem concerns, koi burrough into the mud and eat certain plant life in the wild that can cause serious repurcussions. They have even been blamed for rerouting rivers and eroding their borders.

The rocks are basically not desirable for the same reasons as those above posted. The other added concern is that during spawning, male koi press the female koi up against anything they can to push the eggs out of her abdomen so they can enseminate them. The female at this point has released a hormone into the water (similar to scent) that drives the males nuts. The resulting 'sex' is very violent and can injure or kill a female koi if rocks are present.

The other major concern is not merely aesthetic damage from sharp edges, but from a bacterial perspective things can accumulate and grow under rock then take long periods of time to break down, and will emit large amounts of nitrate and nitrite for long periods of time. Nitrate for koi is like poison for you. Not desirable. It can kill them. Under and around rocks also becomes a poop trap and a breeding ground for harmful bacteria that can cause all types of sicknesses, sores, and health problems.

You will probably want to invest in a large UV light to deal with any incoming sicknesses from the lake, but to be honest, I would isolate the system and build a filter for the ponds. Use the lake for source water and a slow trickle of fresh water. Unless you have control of the biological and sickness situations in the lake.

If you are determined to use the lake, invest in a large commercial filter that filters out cysts, reduces hardness, and is low micron with a washable cartridge. Otherwise you may have potentially disastrous health problems for the koi, and water clarity problems.

Hope that helps you. Let us know as things go along, and there are alot of threads here on filtration topics and hardness and ph that will teach you lots. Including how crazy some of us are....

You ph is good for koi, the reds will do well. The hardness issues can be dealt with with a filter. Overall i think your idea is great and will look awesome when done. i would suspect you will quickly become a koi fanatic when you start to see some really nice ones swimming around in your water. They are great pets, and stress relievers that some doctors even say help reduce risk for high blood pressure and heart disease.

The only place I would put rocks in the stream are places where you want a cascading action or waterfall to oxygenate the water. Oxygenation is always good for koi health and water. Lining the edges is nice also.

[koifishgirl]

Hi Rowly,

Can you give us a site picture? This will help us determine some thing about you pond site and what is growing around the area like tree's that can cause you a problem if close to the water. This is something that you need to take into consideration.

[Rowly]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop for the same reason we don't let our grandchildren play with our dinner forks and steak knives. Frankly, the preponderance of members on this site are interested in the breeding, owning, growing on, conditioning and showing of top quality koi -- mostly from Japan. These koi are an expensive investment for most of us and we go to great lengths to keep them from harm. Even a minor scar can totally ruin a substantial investment. Furthermore, rocks trap mulm which in turn harbors parasites and anareobic bacteria which attack our koi. Same with plants. We very strongly tend not to have rocks, gravel or plants in our ponds -- although some do. Nor do we tend to collect disposable koi. This hobby is large and interests are varied. Not everyone wants to drive a sportscar and that's OK. You have a dream, and that's wonderful, so pursue it by all means. But it's clear that your ponding setup won't be designed with the same elements, for the same purpose or with the same type of koi in mind. Wishing you the best of luck,

Don, great feedback, I can feel the passion of your hobby and investment, now. Wow, for me....at this time I'm looking for a beautiful watercourse in the backyard that has 3-4 lined ponds to enjoy a variety of ornamental fish. Koi are one of them and as a result of their size will get the largest pond. I'm looking for a colorful display of good size......friends in the water that my wife, children and I can enjoy their beauty, growth and individual characteristics if possible while feeding them daily during the growing seasons. I'm not at the point to buy expensive koi for showing but just the enjoyment of sitting in the backyard near the house having a beer and taking it all in, including the lake just behind.....watching the ducks and geese fly in and out of the lake, catch a few largemouth bass on the water bikes and relieve the stresses of everyday life......I guess enjoy life to the fulliest......but I truely feel your passion for the hobby...maybe in time our goals may change but for now the watercourse and Japanese rock gardens landscaping throughout will be our main focus and goal with the koi educating us along the way......I hope this helps in my questioning.... Much appreciated

Rowly