If showas are black then.......

[maryland_ponder]

How is it determined that Showas are BLACK bodied with the white & red over it. Most of the time Black is not the dominant color so how can it be determined that it is the base color (other than knowing the parent fish)?

Ok educate me!!!!!!!!!!!

[KoiCop]

When culling fry for showa, one keeps the solid black.

It's really not about the dominant color of the koi as a juvenile or as an adult. It's more like the base color of an automobile before it's spray painted.

And when you're in doubt, you can try looking inside the koi's mouth.

[koiczar]

M-P

A showa is basically a black fish! So is any utsuri-mono. The Japanese have spent generations on improving these lines - especially showa and shiro-utsuri. There are two types of showas today that may help explain your quandry. Old style- this type has a very heavy black pattern that wraps from the belly to the top. It can become quite distracting as it matures depending on the bloodline and quality of the individual fishes genetics. This type also usually has a dull grayish-black to flat black color to it.

Then there is "kindai" showa. This type has much less black and much more white to it's pattern. The sumu usually still wraps brom the belly to the top but with more "lines" than blocks of color. For the most part, these are the type that seem to be more popular with the breeders as they have spent so much time and effort into getting more shiroji to be visible on showas and shiro utsuri.

My personal taste is a combination of the two - Large blocks of sumi well placed with a balance of all three colors throughout the entire body (see my avatar). I think it marries both history and the modern era together. Incidentally, we are still in the "Showa" era in Japan. That is what this fish was named for several generations ago just like the "Sanke" was named for the Taisho era when it was developed. That's about all the Japanese history I know-so don't ask me any questions about it!!LOL

[bekko]

Showa are a victim of identity theft.

In the old days, showa were selected from black babies. Now, that's often not so. Others can tell you about how the sumi quality on kindai showa is superior. Kindai showa are selected from white babies. It makes for a more striking fish, but also makes showa less special - not much more than a sanke with with too much sumi.

I like kindai showa. I just do not think they should be called "showa".

-stevehop

[adreamer2]

Certainly one can tell from the very young, of the culled, that the darker the skin, the more one can tell it's predominant color and type..... A complexion, if you will, that stands out most


Adreamer2

[dick benbow]

in the beginning Showa were discribed as a black koi with red and white highlights. As indicated in previous posts, Kindai or modern showa cause heartburn for newbees because now they like sanke have a white base with black and red highlights. Even the modern and olde style share distinct markings that help to discribe them by today's modern standards. But not always.

Motoguru...black in the fins like a fan

hachiwade...the v like marking on the head

menware....split the face

[maryland_ponder]

koiczar I always mean to tell you I love that fish on your avatar.

Dick to further progress this subject. How would koi be judged that are more black than the showa's produced today? Is there any trends in Japan of moving towards a blacker fish? I just like the contrast of showas that contain more black.

[dick benbow]

like the width of ties, i think styles have a way of changing. Matsunosuke sanke's are known for all their heavy black, just prior to them were favorite

bloodlines with much less black.

The kobayashi showa, heavy black is still around. I would bet it will swing back
again. I like the heavy black showas.

but here's what you should know from this situation. From a breeders standpoint the showa black was not near the inky-blue back of the sanke. so in order to improve the black they brought in sanke bloodline...this brought in more white.

keep in mind like any producer/manufacturer if you have product the customer wants you'll keep making it. That's why they still breed the olde style goshiki with heavy black.

I predict you'll see the pendulum swing back and black as a dominant color will return.

[RayJordan]

Utsuri's and Showas were developed from a different lineage/branch of the koi genetic tree. From the orginal Magoi (Black river carp) several different colored carp were produced/appeared. One was very dark and called a Tetsu Magoi (Iron carp) from this group appeared Higoi(red carp), old style Aka & Ki Bekkos, Ki and then Hi Ursuris and finally Showas. These fish are said to be black based and considered less refined because of the underlying base color and wrapping patterns.

Modern showas were created by Tommi Kobayashi in the early 60's by crossing the orginal type of showa with Kohaku. This created motoguri vs striped fins and eliminated the netting on the white and brough in the brigher hi pattern of the kohaku. All modern showas today are this bloodline. Showa spawns produce lighter showas with more black called kindai and darler with more black called old style. Crossing with sanke is done to improve type of sumi and also bring in brighter sanke red.


Kohakus and Sankes came from another branch of the koi tree - Asagi-Magoi produced Narumi asagi produced Taki asagi and Goshiki. Taki asagi produced Kohaku and Goshiki produced Goromo. Crossing a certain Goromo with a kohaku produced modern sanke. THese koi are said to be white based and the most refined types.

[koiczar]

Ray

I thought Dainichi was more responsible for kindai showa than kobayashi-I thought he developed the original showa that Mano improved upon.

I would love to discuss this at the All Japan show with you as showa are my passion-maybe you can point out some of the differences between the two there

Mike