Problem after injection of Nuflor??

[Brutuscz]

If you've seen my name here lately, you know I have a few problems with my koi. Basically...lots of ulcers, mouth, fin and tail rot. A few ulcers looked fuzzy. I am assuming it is columnaris. One dealer I buy from sent a few fish with ulcers to Ga, and it came back columnaris. I scoped a few, but couldn't spot anything...no fungus on the fuzzy area. I have used koizyme since I brought them in for winter..didn't do much. I used tricide neo, PP dips, prazi, proform-c, and salt...(all at different times along the way.) I have lost 4 fish total. Only 2 were "good" ones. Both had ulcers..and went fuzzy..then dropsy. 4 shots of baytril did not save one of them. NOW...I have a bottle of nuflor, and have injected about 12 fish. Also using oil of cloves to sedate them first. One fish is having a complication. Since the injection yesterday(IP injection)... he cannot swim properly...almost seems drunk and uncoordinated. Today, he can right himself on the floor (which he was on his side yesterday), but when he goes to swim...it just looks terrible. Could I have hit his swim bladder or something of that nature during the injection? Could it be a neurologic side effect from the medication? Is there anything I can do to help this koi? Thanks in advance for any advice!!!

[koiczar]

My tried and true injectible continues to be Amacacyn. I had a seious problem last May/June where I was losing fish as though it was KHV. I had nothing to lose at one point (after losing 9 fish infour days) so I injected with Amacacyn. Amazingly, one injection completely put the fish back to health within 2 - 4 days. All symptoms disappeared and no problems since (knock on wood)!! I also use ProForm C for 3 days twice in succession with a three day break in between series during early spring. I perform a water change, wait three more days and then dose with PraziPond. Lasts seven days. My problem last year was I waited too long. Going to do it earlier this year and the weather has been mild and temps seem to be on there way up (46 to 54 in 3 days). Hope it's just not a fad!!

The problem you're having with this fish could have been caused by two things. The level of Oil of Clove used to put it under, which if that's the case, it could be just that it's taking a longer time for it to recover, or the NuFlor. I personally hate that stuff. It's really designed to be injected IM not IP. That could have been the other cause. What size is this fish and at what dosage did you inject it?

[marco]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Could I have hit his swim bladder or something of that nature during the injection? Could it be a neurologic side effect from the medication? Is there anything I can do to help this koi? Thanks in advance for any advice!!!

Normaly nuflor is not neurotoxic if used at the right dosage, the main toxicity is for the kidney.
Nuflor is used on big animals for respiratory problems and even for menengitis, thats meann that the product can concentrate in the LCR. The toxicity of the product can be increase by a low water temperature because the fish won't be abble to eliminate it fast enough.
I don't know the used of clove oil, that could be an explanation.
If you have turn the fish upside down for the injection, the chance of damaging the swim bladder is little.
I would try to put the fish in a warmer water with a lot of oxygen, and perhaps it would be a good thing to ask a bacterial identification taking some sample on a cotton stick and giving that to a goodf vet lab.
Good luck

[dick benbow]

GOOD INFO GUYS!

I think Nuflor is a good product. As stated it is IM but what I like about it is that it doesn't have to be given as often so eliminates the constant stress of handling. Also if you use Oil of cloves the koi build up a resistance to it and it takes them longer and longer to go down and come out when injections have to be made every day in a series or within a day or two of each other.

What I hate about the product is it's oil based, needs to be injected with a thicker needle and if you put it in a smaller ligter one the back pressure always blows the needle away from the dosage tube!

That's why 25 years ago I went away from a focus on solving problems after the fact to preventing them prior to. been happy ever since.

Engineered ponds like henry's new one while costly are less expensive in the long run. understocking, super filtration a real focus on water care makes keeping koi more fun than heartbreak...(sorry I'll put my soap box away)

[Brutuscz]

Koiczar...sounds like what happened to me last year. I thought it was khv..so I started to heat the pond. Big mistake...they started to drop like flies. I lost almost all my koi. Anyway...I used the clove oil on all the ones I injected..the others are fine, so I dont think its that. The dosage of nuflor was from the koivet website. So it wasn't an overdose or anything. I just think I may have hit an organ...or the fish is having a reaction to the drug. I did use a 20 guage needle...which is brutal. I took out all my fish one by one to check them yesterday. About 12 more had stuff brewing. Either an ulcer underneath that was hard to see, or rot on the mouth or fins. I injected them all with nuflor...no problems. This hole disease really stinks. I figured koizyme would stop it from spreading..but it did nothing. Must be columnaris. I will break out the scope again and look. I applied bio-bandage to all wounds(so it may mess up my microscopy). This is so lousy...but better I am dealing with it now, indoors...than in my main pond this spring. I will use PP in my main pond..5 times when starting up, before any fish go in. Try to whack watever may be living in there. I had my pond for 5 years with no infection problems at all...then last year, it was like a bomb hit my pond. My pond is 7,000gal and not heavily stocked at all. My water measurements are always excellent (tds 120)...I just think I picked up an infection from a local dealer (who told me he had columnaris cultured on a few fish)... I just don't want a mass wipeout again!!!!

[Brutuscz]

Anybody here ever use that furogen stuff to immunize against ulcers? They used to advertise heavily and I don't hear about it much anymore. It would be great if it worked.

[marco]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow GOOD INFO GUYS! I think Nuflor is a good product...

Hi Dick, I think Nuflor was a good product, but now its possible to find better antibiotics without the side effecty of nuflor and that last enven between 5 an 7 days. Some new antibiotics doesn't burn, are not oily and really fluid to inject and have a stronger and larger effect then the old generation one.
I'm just waiting some answer from the labs to know the dosis for koï carp.
I'll post that in a future thread.

[mitten]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow That's why 25 years ago I went away from a focus on solving problems after the fact to preventing them prior to. been happy ever since. Engineered ponds like henry's new one while costly are less expensive in the long run. understocking, super filtration a real focus on water care makes keeping koi more fun than heartbreak...(sorry I'll put my soap box away)

mR. bENBOW-

iT IS THIS SOAP BOX WORTHY POINT OF VIEW THAT MAKES YOU SO VALUABLE TO ALL OF US. rANT aWAY!!

Brutish-

There was discussion elsewhere in the near/far past (two years ago? Roark?) that the competitive exclusion of koizyme (lymnozyme at the time) acted to eliminate the proliferation of aeromonas but left the field wide open for psuedomonas. This possiblity combined with my disappointment at continuation of bacterial problems in water treated with Lymnozyme caused me to stop using it here. Does anyone have more recent or more scientific facts than this about this topic??

Mickey the windowman

[KoiCop]

while you told us that you moved your koi from a 7,000 gallon pond indoors for the winter, you have failed to post the most basic information about your koi or your QT, i. e. such things as: Size of QT; description of filtration & air; water changes (amount and frequency); water parameters; # and size of koi; etc., etc., etc.

Every reputable koi forum with KHAs ready to assist you requires that you read the sticky at the top of the page and answer these kinds of basic questions before they'll attempt to diagnose and/or treat your problems.

Unfortunately, it is quite possible that your QT setup/practices are not up to the fish load causing your young koi (which are extremely vulnerable to stress to begin with) to break with every symptom know to man. On top of that, you've bombarded them with just about every chemical in the medicine chest -- that, too, is very hard on tosai.

Since it is entirely possible that your problems require an entire system overhaul (above all, your koi need warm pristine water and rest to heal), rather than more &/or different meds/nukes, I suggest you pop back over to KV and start from the very beginning.

I'm sure that someone like REC would help you work through all the steps to get your herd back on the road to health we all desire for our koi.

Wishing you the very best of luck,

[Brutuscz]

My indoor winter set up is a 560 gallon pool with an up-flow style filter and a 9 watt Uv. I also took the heavy duty air pump I use on my main pond and brought it indoors. I have been doing regular water changes, and my measurements have been good. Ammonia 0 nitrites zero, nitrates 20. The temperature has been at 60F. I have thrown lots of meds at the koi...but this has been spread out over several months..so it sounds like more than it is. All that is in my pool now is melafix and koizyme(weekly). I am injecting the nuflor to the fish that are affected, and feeding blackwater creek antibiotic food. I did the tricide neo several weeks ago to a few koi...not using this currently. The prazi was a while ago, so they would not have flukes. I did deal with a KHA a few months ago, and they were helpful. Told me the problem was flukes and bacterial infections...not khv. Rec also helped, as he is a friend of my local KHA. She sent my microscopic slides to him, and discussed my case. I'm just hoping my results with the nuflor are as good as stated on koivet(95% recovery rate). As much as I hate going through this now..I realize it would have happened in the spring if I left them outdoors. My best case scenario is to heal up these koi...bomb my pond 5 times with PP this spring...and get them out in my main pond, where the water quality is excellent. Any advice is appreciated!!! Anyone know about the furogen stuff?