Selecting Tosai, pointers...

[Seefdro Tvneik]

This is a funny post...Really in many ways, Is'nt beauty in the eye of the beholder???Rolling Stones..."you can't aways get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need"......

[carolyn swanson]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee a newby(sp) has a better shot at getting a good fish that way than pretending they know squat and buying what is a koi about to loose its hi or become a totally black fish in a year... the ugly little koi in the higher priced tank will be the better purchase in the long run...both in education and beauty....Not always, but a helluva lot more often than the pretty ones that cost the same amount

It's good logic to let the dealer or breeder, who has vastly more experience, do the chosing for you: the quality/desirability is reflected in the price. I wish that I had the courage to do this, but my main requirement is a picture of Elvis on the fish--which tends to restrict my choices.

[mitten]

<I hope some newby doesn't take Luke's post seriously.>

Ray- (Mr. Jordan)

Because I haven't been reading/studying for 20 or more years I can see the sense of Luke's "buy the ugly, expensive one" crack pot theory.

And I would say that especially with showa and shiro's, like you have mentioned in your article, it can be an ugly duckling recognizable to an expert dealer of fine koi, or to an expert selector of fine koi, like yourself, but not to a novice or "not yet expert" buyer. This would explain the convergence of ugly with expensive to which Luke is saying "hey...maybe..." and you are now saying " whatta ya stoopid?." It seems that Lukie Mon, like me, believes in honorable, knowledgable dealers selling koi for their true worth.

Myself, I'd rather pay $200 for a three year old than a tosai, understanding that I will not be a contender in any show worth contending in. Nope. I will be having a blast with high grade, not show, fish.

And maybe sometime in the future, right after the lottery ticket, I will walk into an honorable, knowledgable koi dealer's fish room and have something bowled,, skipping the $200 limit.

Mickey the windowman

[Seefdro Tvneik]

The wise windowman speaks.....Hey Mick I will stop by at the end of the month with pics from Hawaii.....It seems as if many of you have develpoed an "ESP" with predicting koi potential...HAHAHA.... Since in many ways I am "newby" we might as well hear how a newby picks baby koi...First, I look first for vibrant strong color.....Second, I look for body shape...Third, I look for pattern...Then I roll the dice, and maybe in time I get lucky....Of the 60 or so baby koi I have purchased maybe 4 or 5 are considered high grade now....These 4 or 5 koi are now 14" to 15" inches long with potential....Reading books and articles are great but there stilll nothing like first hand experience with koi development of "the good, the bad, and the ugly" When I entered the hobby, it did not take much to please my senses....But over the course of time I have turned a little koi snobby...The koi that pleases my spiritual senses the most is still my first koi (local pet store purchase), which thankfully is still alive after all my intial stupidity within the hobby.....This koi is a warrior, it should of died several times over!!!!!!

[wtansk]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee and the short trick....buy the most expensive koi from a known dealer that you have no idea why it is worth that much money.... The reasoning: A dealer/breeder knows what sells and also what is going to be good but looks like hell now...and they price the "cute" koi high because they have the visual appeal right now...and sell the tategoi because they really don't have enough room to keep them ....So buy the crapiest-looking expensive koi and sit back and watch.

Depending on the dealer might be dangerous. Some dealer might be selling unknown breeder koi, claiming them to be from famous breeder or from famous bloodline or getting low grade koi from Japan and selling them at sky high price. So, advise is to know the dealer you are dealing with. First time mistake is their fault, but if you repeat buying from them, you will have to blame yourself.

[MikeM]

The key to Luke's idea is his reference to a "known" dealer. Basically, he's suggesting to rely on a top dealer's advice. If somebody follows this idea, I'd suggest asking the dealer why the price is so high on a tosai that looks so poor in comparison to others. A reliable dealer will take the time to teach, and you can appreciate what to look for as it grows. I've learned much lurking around the sales vats at shows asking questions and listening to what others are told, especially "snooping" on the conversations of the likes of Kevin Pham, Ray Abell, Mat McCann.

[KoiCop]

I would respectfully suggest that your "listen and learn from the pros" technique is a far cry from Luke's sacastic "buy fugly and stay ignorant" throwaway line.

[Seefdro Tvneik]

I'm curious to see what some of you think about Taro Kodamo "koi bible book"....I almost purchased this book....From what I understand the book goes into detail with koi development....comments?

[RayJordan]

I think we are talking about several different types of tosai. Maybe this description will help.

Let's make up names for grades of Japanese tosai:

Culls - Culled along the way or at the fall harvest - Shiro muji or almost SM and most solid non metallics. Obvious deformaties and weak color or pattern. Recycled as protein or some sold as food koi.

C grade/pond koi - This is the bottom of the cut that a japanese breeder sells as koi from his fall harvested tosai. They have been through several culls. They have recognizable pattern/color and are worthwhile selling wholesale or via auction by the truckload or large orders. Usually sold in late fall/winter. Cost by the time they reach the U.S. $10-$50 retail.

B grade/pond koi - this is the middle of the cut. They will have much better quality both brighter color and better patterns. Sold in smaller lots (10 boxes)little or no individual selection. Majority of what we see sold at most koi dealers. Cost by the time they reach the U.S. $50-$200

A grade koi - These are the next to the top in quality. Selection done in Spring after watching development all winter. Good enough to be hand selected and priced. These are the ones we usually see sold as top quality in Japan or the U.S. Some of these almost made the selection to be kept and grown another year. Most are already showing signs to the breeder that he can make more money selling them today rather than keeping another year. retail cost by the time they reach the U.S. $100 to $500. This is where we try to find the needle in the haystack the one that slipped by the breeder or perhaps it was ranked #101 by the breeder just keeping just 100 to grow another year.

Tategoi - Selected by the breeder as his best "future" koi. Maybe only 1-200 out of an entire tosai pond where 100,000 or more were harvested in the fall. Normally not for sale - but if customer willing to pay the likely price as a two year old these can be bought occasionally in Japan. Expect to pay $1,000 to $5,000 in Japan and whatever the market will bear in the U.S. if a U.S. dealer were to buy them I would think it would be a preorder for a special customer. After all why pay a two year old price for an unproven tosai. Just buy the more predicable two year old instead.

Remember that the Tategoi will all be unfinished but the breeder hopes they will become more finished as 2-3 year olds and therefore command a much higher price.

Grade a, b, & c will contain both finished and unfinished koi but very very few will likely make a huge jump in value over sales price. And yes, I have seen small unfinished ugly koi sold at a very high price with the claim of tategoi made turn out to be larger ugly unfinished koi. Tategoi are not ugly. They are clearly unfinished but already beautiful.

I enjoy buying some tosai every year for their educational and entertainment value. Some I buy to study their development others for upcoming shows to compete for baby awards. But I have never bought a baby koi that has grown up a few years and then won a top award in a major show. I really do not expect to do so but it is fun trying.

If you want to upgrade your koi collection buy fewer and older (2-3 yr olds). These will be more developed and easier to determine their true potential and quality.

[Kohaku]

Good to know.