Spawning insight, advice needed.....

[koiedge]

Spring is fast approaching here in Central Florida and my thoughts are to pairings for spawning. I have about 8 sets to spawn this year and much work ahead. This weekend will be the big separation - males from females. Photos of all fish with size measurements will be taken at this time, also.

I need any seasoned advice on certain variety spawning. I have a female budo goromo that I would like to match with a male or two. What is the best match for more budo fry? Goshiki or Ai goromo males? What about using a kohaku male? Culling?

Second, Beni Kumonryu - this I was thinking of spawning 2 kumonryu males with a kohaku female. Any thoughts on creating beni kumonryu? Culling?

Last, thinking of Shusui. I have a nice red female shusui - what would make the best mates? Culling?

I have been studying the cross reference charts in "Manual to Nishikigoi" and other ref. from "Complete Koi" on crosses. Any other good reference out there on crosses and genetic history?

Last year, I had great success with hatching. But not enough grow out tanks. This year I will have many 3000 gallon grow out tanks and start right off culling hard. These tanks will be rich with live food like rotifers when the fry are transfered to these tanks from the hatching tanks and first culling. I wish there was more information on breeding and spawing. It is all kept so close to the chest. I am very excited to give it another go this spring.

Jeff

[adreamer2]

Is this the first time for you?....

If so, they say pair off same kind koi....

Kohaku/kohaku.... shusui/shusui..... etc...


adreamer2

[dick benbow]

three bansai's for that breeding guru named " they say"!

[elunned]

I don't know nothing 'bout birthin no doitsu or them other weird fishes - but helped a good friend with his backyard breeding program on blue koi.

In goromo, I look for nice clean white. Babies will show minimal reticulation, so when culling you look for good kohaku patterns and even hi, plus clean heads and decent shiro. By breeding goshiki with goromo, you get a much higher percentage of goshiki babies (reticulation on the red and the ground). I would probably partner the female budo with a kohaku or a kohaku and an ai goromo (since they are so spiffy). Goromo x goromo spawnings also seem to throw a high percentago of goshiki, so using a kohaku should improve the odds. Reticulation can take upwards of a year to develop, so keep stealth youngsters away from any pure kohaku growouts. Greg combined the fry from different spawns, so I'm not sure about the odds of getting aigoromo, vs budo or sumi goromo from different pairings.

I prefer wagoi to doitsu, but shusui are a special case - since they are bue fish. Breed the shusui with an asagi, and cull the doitsu babies for even scaling along the dorsal. My personal tastes don't equate red shusui with nice shusui, but that is a personal thing In addition to regular scalation, look for youngsters with clean heads and symetrical red without any stray hi. I think that even pond grade shusui should have light heads and be free from stray hi. Symetrical scalation (that perfect zipper) is what sets apart the ones with show potential. You also want to make sure that they are not too dark.

Of course, you always need to keep an eye on conformation and cull any koi with defects, but that is true for any variety.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by adreamer2 Is this the first time for you?.... adreamer2

CLUE TO ANSWER: "Last year, I had great success with hatching . . . "

Get it, now?

[RayJordan]

If you can't breed the same varieties together at least breed by closer genetic lineage. Kumanryu to Shusui would at least be doitsu and lateral patterned. But you will see much less quality in this spawn than by breeding the same varieties together.

[elunned]

I agree with Ray, which is why I would pair the shusui with asagi, since they are the same variety, just with different scalation. (Doitsu x doitsu can give up to 25% lethal recessive, but with the thousand of fertilized eggs - it doesn't really matter). Goromo trace back to asagi x kohaku, so I would backcross to the more refined kohaku if you don't have a suitable goromo.I would focus on devoting your resources to the progeny of the best pairings. If the females are sexually mature and have been kept with males, they should be spawned under controlled conditions. However, there is no reason to keep the fertilized eggs from all of them. Give the fry with the most potential more space instead of putting all your best eggs in one basket/growout pool. <grin> Focus on 2 or 3 pairings and split the eggs from each among several tanks. That gives you enough room to be more conservative on culling early, so that you can wait until the traits you want are more obvious. Make sense?

[adreamer2]

Quote: CLUE TO ANSWER: "Last year, I had great success with hatching . . . " Get it, now?

I see... That one went right over my head.....

[bekko]

Jeff, you're much more ambitious than I. I think its best to focus on a single variety for at least 5 to 10 years and only work with a couple of spawns within that variety each year. With this approach, you learn which pairings provide the best results and you learn how to cull for fish that develop well over the long term. I am just now graduating from kohaku to sanke, so I can't comment on any of your selection queries.

It is interesting that when you hear people on Koi Bito talk about pairing koi, they always seem to be intent on finding a good out-cross. They want to cross one "line" (use the word loosely) of a variety to another line, or even cross one variety to a different variety. This is contrary to most other types of fish breeding where they in-breed until some weakness in the line becomes apparent and it is necessary to out-cross to renew vigor. In-breeding is the best way to increase the percentage of offspring with the parents' desirable characteristics. The more genetically differentiated the parents are, the more variability there will be in the offspring. It is, after all, a numbers game.

For us hobby breeders, the out-crossing is often an artifact of our collection of adults. We acquire fish because we like them, not because we plan to use them as breeders some day. I am trying to move to the next level and purchased a group of tosai from a "line" that had been in-bred for 20 years. I wish/hope they are all siblings, but the cost to hunt down a group of known siblings was more than I could afford. The ideal would have been to acquire known siblings sansi, but that was way out of my reach. These fish have grown well since last June and may spawn this year. When mature, these fish and their offspring will be my broodstock for the next decade or so.

Quote: I wish there was more information on breeding and spawing. It is all kept so close to the chest.

There's quite a bit of info out there on the science of spawning and larval rearing. There is almost no information on pairing and culling. However, the lack of info on pairing and culling may simply be because it is art instead of science. You find a good pair using instinct and trial-and-error. You cull based on your artistic vision and you may need to use different culling criteria for different "lines" within a variety, or even for different pairings.

-steveh opk ins

[Kohaku]

This was giving to me to help understand lineage, maybe it can help understand pairings?