Tosai,...

[Brady Brandwood]

Yes Luke,... why? Is that good?

Best Wishes,
Brady

[dick benbow]

I think Brady should make another comment and just happen to post a few showa tosai...er ahh, for mike of course <grin>

The compromised comment is really bigger than most realize.....

Actually I like the top kohaku in the pic......

I remember a few years ago when toshio sakai put his #1 koromo tosai in a tiny blue bowl and walked away. Lordy what a to die for koi and it kept acting like it was gonna bail....I was scared to death it would happen on "my watch". The kohaku pattern was there and so was the skin, you had to look twice to see it was koromo. Once you saw what a real koi looked like, the others tho their pattern was more apparent paled in comparison. That's why I think it's so important to go to the souce so you can see what really is possible. Until you do you'll never "get it ". Brady is a great teacher, if you can get there when he's not busy you might learn something....especially with his magoi
breeding which I find totally interesting

[luke frisbee]

So you got a head start....no biggee ...I mean

[koiczar]

KingKong

You ask about the 12" SFF tosai you posted a pic of. The answer is, if you are familiar with the bloodline, and a lot of folks know Rose Queen's offspring tendancies, then all you have to know about this fish is whether it is male or female. Do you buy it? Depends on what your aspirations are for the fish. If it is a female, the price will be quite abit higher than a male. If it's a male then a smaller pond might do okay. The depth of the beni in the pic looks almost finished. If female, chances are it won't continue to get better in 6-8 yrs. If male, the color may last long enough for you to grow it to around 18" - 20" and show it. After that, it's like a used car with too many miles. Dump it or lose the quality in your own pond.
It's really a shame that breeders don't show anyone pics of what they keep as tategoi tosai. This would really educate the general public of what is good and what is tateshita and chuppa. The tateshita are what have being referred to by Luke and others as the high priced tosai that look terrible and the tosai are what you can usually buy in the $15 - $100 range. Either way you look at it, the breeder didn't feel it worth keeping. If he did, and you really insist on purchasing it, the price will be what he would sell it for as a nisai or sansai. He's not going to let that fish go unless you're willing(or stupid enough) to pay a very high price.

Now, as far as being a "newbie" as some here claim to be, here is my question for you! Why would you want to spend $500 on 3 tosai which you are gambling with the outcome? Why not take and add a couple of hundred and buy 2 nisai of about 16" size? First off, the breeder felt comfortable keeping these to see how they would develop for another year, so you know they were tategoi tosai. Now, maybe they are tateshita or chuppa but the quality is more easily seen and the value is greater. You can also usually tell much more easily if they are male or female. Keep in mind, females are not for everyone. If you have a smaller pond (under 5000 gal) then I would suggest you stay with males - but try to pick the ones with the larger frames. They will grow out and develop more nicely in your size pond. Females need a lot of room to grow to allow their full potential to show through. This is just MHO and those more knowledgeable can rip me a new one if you think I'm off base here.

[kingkong]

Makes sense Koiczar. The rest of the story is that nidan kohaku has the blood of champions running in it's veins but its size was small compared to the rest of the litter. No mention of sex in description so must be male. I agree, a koi colored up like this at 12 inches, is not going to hold up when and if the fish reaches 21 inches.
I missed the boat, Scott Purdin had a couple of terrific Kohaku spawn and Scott grew their young on and he invited me to come back to see the entire group before any were sold. I did not get back to La. to see, that would have been my chance to see tosai with potential without the best removed or screened from view. I missed an excellent chance to see the whole picture.

[Flounder]

Quote: Originally Posted by kingkong I missed the boat, Scott Purdin had a couple of terrific Kohaku spawn and Scott grew their young on and he invited me to come back to see the entire group before any were sold. I did not get back to La. to see, that would have been my chance to see tosai with potential without the best removed or screened from view. I missed an excellent chance to see the whole picture.

When was this?

[kingkong]

April 05 visit?, about 5 days after Brady was there, saw brood stock in mild green holding tanks. Working with Kohaku and Showa set ups. Hard to see koi in full view due to water and algea content but what I saw was very nice. He was to have a spawn to see by October but there was a accident and a hurricane so I never made it back to see. Hope all is well there now in Glynn, La. Am I missing something?

[TylerJ]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brady Brandwood It’s best to: 1.) Get a good selection - if you can. 2.) Buy directly from the source when possible. 3.) Buy from sources that are very colse to the breeder if posible - in other words buy tosai that haven’t been compromised already. Best Wishes, Brady Brandwood

Brady, are these your fish? they are nice.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by kingkong OK Russel or anyone, here is a Sakia of Hiroshima 12 " tosai, Rose Queen off spring. Tell us why you would or wouldn't purchase this tosai kohaku with the information I have supplied only please. Thanks

Well, knowing the fish from the information provided I would buy it if I had the money...Sakai fish from this Champion line commands a high price and knowing the track record of this line gives you a 85% chance of a good thing. But the percentage comes down to 50% when you take the fish home and raise it. To maintain a fish like this is all hobbyist skill and the bloodline. You can have the tosai from the best lines, but it is still in the hands of the hobbyist to raise it.

[kingkong]

Thanks Koiczar and Aquitori, it is all starting to take shape. I wish we could observe all four of those kohaku develop in the same tank Brady. Your kokaku resemble Shintaro koi to me.