breeders are Cullers

[luke frisbee]

That's it. That's the only thing that has to be there to be GC...the color can be a little off, the pattern can be "unique" but the conformation has to be there to be GC.
Koi are terrible, breeding beasts gentically encoded is the mechanism to have as many variations as possible in every spawning.
If this fish had the breeding mechanism of an animal that relied on producing duplicates of the parents like a dog or duck then the hobby could establish varieties that were more identifiable, and established patterns could be solidified within the varieties.
but as it is the koi breeder will chase shadows...black and orange ...and catch White lightning in a jar..the emphasis will never be about breeding but about culling...
I wonder if we should call the breeders, "cullers" instead....lest yuo think I've started another thread within the thread I haven't...Koi are terrible breeding beasts...hence the eye of the breeder...errrr CULLER.

just another way sideways thought

[koiczar]

Luke

I agree with you to some degree, however, if breeders were only concerned with "culling" then why is so much emphasis place on parent selection? This is what keeps most high end breeders on their toes. They must constantly infuse new genetics into their lines to keep from inbreeding. That's when you start getting a lot of deformities and sterile offspring. What good would that do?

[Kohaku]

Uhhh, yeah, no. I agree with koizcar. Sterile, deformed offspring are bad. If koi always produced duplicates, the hobby would lose some of its mystery and romance, koi themselves would lose value. "Terrible breeding beasts"?! Maybe they are aggresvie breeders but terrible BEASTS? Thats not very nice... Pattern IS important, although conformation is the First thing that is judged, and is very important, pattern is as well.

[luke frisbee]

KC,
While there is some need to have good breeding pairs/trios, the culling is where the breeder er culler makes his name....
it is the equivelant of a sculptor getting a good peice of stone to chisel a statue from.

Also a culler must know what to look for before it is there...if he misreads the fry-tosai he is a poor man fast. A pair can throw hundreds of butt-ugly tosai that hide their potential from the culler's eye. The Pair still bred Great Koi, but the culler was incapable of seeing the beauty. So while breeding appears to be the act, it is actually culling that proves the value of the "breeder."

[KoiCCAPW]

I agree with both Luke and Koiczar;
A breeder needs to look at parent's potential so that he will get ultmately maybe 500 decent koi instead of 50. However, even good parent koi have many bad fry, so culling is a big part even with good genetics.
I often marvel at the luck of even pond grade koi to have made it to the point of sale when so, so many of their siblings became bait.
So to become a show worthy fish, it's been though the gauntlet of dozens of cullings...that in itself is quite something.

[mrbradleybradley]

Hi

As a Aussie breeder, err culler, I am both. Some parents produce duds time after time and no amount of culling will make any difference. I have tried and failed many times. Then I have a few parents that give me amazing hopefuls every time.

It is an art to pick the right breeder.

It is an art to then correctly cull.

Bradley

[MikeM]

Yes, yes, yes. ... And the breeder's sense of beauty will influence that final selection. A similarity in "look" exists at the end of the season that was not there when there were hundreds of thousands of fish.

[dick benbow]

From My experience, once you have a breeding pair that "clicks" and you have something to work with then the ability to sembetsu comes into the fore....not until.....In the years prior as i was learning I remember checking out japanese breeders ponds while the main crowd was busy buying koi. Many times It was amazing to see the breeders had no pattern, and as many were pretty old many
would surprise you that they were the famous breeder's main stock. Found some shiro muji's in many a breeder's pond! To me it was easier to learn the art of tosai selection...

[koiczar]

Dick

You're absolutely right! A breeder friend for many many years would show me his brood stock. Most all were not very pleasing to look at, but his top offspring sure were. He had upstarts 30 years ago that would still be in contention today. Those breeders with shiro muji parents certainly know what that fish is capable of producing. Only the rigors of spawning have caused the color to disappear.

[Kohaku]

This only proves that shiromuji can be nice after all...