A new rule to being a judge...

[koiczar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the candidate judges for both organizations have to pay at least their own travel expenses when assigned to judge a show? That's a lot of personal money to put out and for what? I'm curious to know what entices an individual to want to be a judge when so much personal financial input is required. Bob, or any other of the judges from these organizations who post here, what was your driving force behind it?

On another note, once someone is certified as a judge in AKCA, who then pays for the certified judge to travel to a show they have been scheduled to judge? The local club or the head organization? It's a local debate question that the answer would help remedy.

Mike

[schildkoi]

I don't personally know any AKCA certified judges who have not been to Japan. I am sure they may be some. Requirement to the All Japan Show? I don't look at that as a big of a learning experience in and of itself (not that it definitely would not be beneficial) due to reasons already mentioned, going to Japan, most definitely where, at least in my personal experience, I had the oportunity to talk and discuss one on one attributes of varying Koi with the experts who bred themThat being said, exposure to high class Koi over and over again is what helps to train a person's "eye". Having knowledgeable people helping with that understanding also helps that training process. The key, regardless of location (although quality Japanese Breeders are the best) is that repetitive exposure to high class Koi. This single, true requirement can be accomplished in a number of ways. Bottom line, its whether a person "has an eye" or not, not "where" they got it.

But, there is also much more than "having the eye" as to, being a judge. The ability to translate the visual attributes to verbal communication, to teach and make the comparisons while yet doing so in a manner not only to educate but do so without offending other competitors. The ability to track and organise decisions while making decisions, and the list goes on. There have been many AKCA candidate judges with good "eyes" that have not been able to fufill the other aspects required of a good judge. They should be respected for their eye and their drive and not felt any less of since not all people have all qualities for all things, in Koi or any other area.

Steve

[schildkoi]

Like most, I sought out sources of information to learn from. Outside of Koi, I have also extensive experience and love for teaching/training. I looked originally at the Judging program as more direct access to more experience information. Along with that avenue I also sought out what I perceived as advanced hobbyists. Thorughout the 90s I traveled extensively on business and always attempted to work my travel schedule around Koi shows or related activities. I received introductions and ultimately made friendships in this manner, all the while extracting all the information that I could. Making friends along the way with the Waddingtons and even making multiple trips to England for visits along with visits to the BKKS National. Like others, it was what Peter has called "an addiction". Although much of this was covered through business travels, it still costs around $8-10K a year out of my pocket between judging assignments, Speaking engagements, showing Koi myself, AKCA required seminar, etc. Last year as an example, I judged 6 shows, showed at 3 shows, attended the AKCA seminar, and did 2 Koi related speaking engagements. Busy year! For a certified judge, the show picks up the hotel room for the judges and meals while at the show, travel and ancillary expenses are out of our own pockets. It started out for me as I mentioned, a means of learning more, and still is today while at the same time provides another avenue of enjoyment in helping to teach others.

I refused to go to Japan for many years and took some critisisms from many of my closest Koi friends over it. I believed (and still do), that you have to reach a given level of understanding inorder to benefit from what was/I would see and hear once I made the trip. In other words, I wanted to learn what I could here first, then abroad (outside of Japan) and then finally in Japan. Like any structural pattern, learning being no different, you must have a solid foundation before you can build upwards.

Steve

[Bob Winkler]

Hi Mike,

Candidates typically pay all their expenses to go to a show, including airfare, hotel, friendship trophies, etc etc.. Excluding the judges dinner, and show banquet.

Certified Judges typically pay all the above except Hotel. So not a ton of difference in $ out. Last year alone Shila and I spent about $2000 of personal money on koi shows I was judging and traveling to them. This does not include the money for the annual seminar, shows attended I was not judging, etc etc.

Why do it?? Sometimes I wonder too. One catches alot of crap, even if they don't speak up much, and for what. Originally, I got into judging to learn. About all aspects of koi, but especially how to tell a high quality koi from not quite as good koi. And how to pick them. For myself. Quickly. What drilled my relative lack of knowledge home to me was my first trip to Japan. I had kept koi for some 9 years at the time and thought I knew a little. I saw a $500 koi and a $5000 koi in the same large bowl. Both very nice looking to me, would have been happy with either, but I certainly could not tell what made the difference exactly in the two, let alone know the value of the higher one. Yes I knew it was nicer, but not by alot IMO.

I also wanted to hang out with similarly addicted nuts. Or idiots maybe. Partly because it sounded like fun to me and partly because my "then" wife did not feel the same "peace" I felt when just being around a really good koi. When I finally was able to own a couple of those myself, it made it even better. "Inner Peace" are good words for what I feel in Koi. Not many places in life can one consistently get that.

I do like to help others, and this is a way that sometimes I can do that. Whether it is sharing what little knowledge I have gained ("My way" is a bit more low key than some others, but works for me), helping heal a friend's koi, or just pitching in and brainstorming on koi topics. Shooting the Shi*, er, talking koi at the adult beverage establishment. Ideally in Nagaoka. But if not there, then anywhere.

That was a wife time ago...LOL One frustrating thing is that my "now" wife, Shila, doesn't work nearly as hard as I at it and her eye is better than mine many times. But then she has a genetic advantage. She is Japanese.

And that's the "what for" for me.

Steve, You are "spot on" about much of that. Doesn't really matter where you see the great koi, as long you see them, and alot of them.

[koiczar]

Steve

Thanks for the in-depth look into the life of a judge. It's got to be "all about the koi/hobby"! IMHO, I, too have sought out many over my years in the hobby to learn all I can. I guess when you really care about something, you tend to absorb it all like a sponge. I had several mentors along the way, one in particular , who was a Japanese breeder, but who bred his Japanese stock here in the U S. I say Japanese breeder as his philosophies about breeding and what makes a top quality fish came from his upbringing there, not here. I've probably forgotten more than I've retained after all this time, but I still enjoy looking at fish through the teachings of this individual. And, no, it wasn't through Grant, although I still consider him as one of the top contributors.

I agree with your philosophy about waiting to go to Japan til after getting a good base foundation. You tend to appreciate your experiences with a different level of understanding. I also agree with you about spending as much time as you can looking at "high quality" fish. It really spoils you though from the perspective of seeing "high" vs "average" quality when you go to the dealers. They have a different set of parameters to allow them to earn a living. I just can't afford what I "see" anymore so have to be judicious when making a selection. I usually reserve my purchases now for when I go to Japan.

[schildkoi]

Same wave length. Typical dealers cannot afford the capital expenditures to import true high quality Koi for sale to the general public. Thus, the few they bring in are already purchased and in and out of ther establishments as quickly as QT will allow. The rare dealer(s) that are exceptions to this are worth their wieght in gold for a true student. Thus, the Koi show become a premier venue for this exposure...not all mind you but more than one may think as well.

Did you take a few trips to visit Fred, Mike? I spent hours there time and time again (while in Sacramento on business) and after about 2 years of this he opened up to me and we had very long conversations afterwards. Just speculating.

Steve

[gregbickal]

Quote: that you have to reach a given level of understanding inorder to benefit from what was/I would see and hear once I made the trip

I definetly agree with this. I learned alot from my trip to Japan, but I think I could have benefited more from it in about 5 years from now.

[schildkoi]

One thing to remember, a person with a little knowledge who may think they have more knowledge will quickly become some breeder's "best friends". A person still needs to know how to sort through fact and fiction.....having a good knowledge base can help immensly in this regard.

Steve

[dinh]

One or two trips to Japan for AJS will be wonderful. No doubt that any trip to any koi show will gain extra knowledge in general as well as koi judgement, speically trips to AJS....

But as for another condition to become an AKCA koi judge is way too far and to much for requirements and it can become unfair for qualified koi kichi that do not have strong financial status to support the exepensive...


I have studied quite well about AKCA and ZNA judge program, process, and requirements and how to become one. My study is not for me personal to get in the program. Never intent to become a koi judge, but during formation of ZNA NorCal, I have to write the ByLaws and I have to learn in order to draft the "Shows and Judging" Articles for our club. Man, AKCA Judge's requirements and processes are too much and way to hard to difficult. Seems like it is harder than get a law degree or judge in real life.... It is not just knowledge, commitments, etc...., but the time that koi judges have to spend in order to get certify as well as maintain the title.... My hat off to all for sacrifice their time and financial they make just for the koi hobby that we all enjoying so much.

--Dinh

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori A new rule to being a judge...I have heard that some judges have never been to Japan. Quick question, why doesn't the AKCA help judge canidates make trips to Japan to broaden their eye about koi? Maybe they should add they should go to Japan to attend atleast 2 All-Japan Shows...

[schildkoi]

Broad shoulders and kevlar underwear. One has to beable to take all the shots thrown at them as well

Steve