Question for the experts about my shiro utsuri

[Dale Torok]

My shiro utsuri has developed a tiny red spot at the end of the body right at the start of the tail. This shiro is 5 years old, has been developing well and has never had any hi. Then this spot showed up late last fall.

The pond was covered for the winter. With the underwater camera, whenever the shiro swam by the camera, I could see the little red spot. Last week when I pulled the pond cover back to feed the fish some boiled barley I got a good look and could see it still there. I'm optimistic because it is a tiny bit smaller than last fall and the red is much lighter or washed out looking. Maybe it's going away? I don't know. I have no experience with anything like this.

My question is, will this go away? Get worse? Have any of you had a shiro of this age have red just appear like this?

Here are two pictures of the tail. The picture showing the entire fish was taken last last November. You can see the red dot at the base of the tail.

Any and all comments would be appreciated. I took this fish to the Louisville Koi Show last year. The judges told me they liked the fish, but it needed another year of development. Grant & Penny Patton told me, "be sure to bring this one back next year." Now........I don't know... Ya know, it's always something, isn't it?

Dale

[RayJordan]

Hi Dale,
Yes, tobi (lo quality stray red) hi is not that unsual on Shiro Utsuri. Modern Shiro Utsuri were developed from showa. Over time breeding shiro utsuri to shiro utsuri and crossing to shiro bekko has improved the quality and produced todays shiro's.

Showa breeding also produces some bbies without any hi that are sold sometimes as shiro utsuris. These koi are very likely to develop tobi hi.

Even with higher quaity Shiros the showa genetics arenot that far removed. It is not unsual to see some stray red develop even on high quality shiro's. The spot of hi might disappear by itself or might not. Depends on how large and how thick it is. A common place to see some tobi hi apprear is on the gill covers or the head.

If you want to take a chance and try and remove the hi - pm me and I will give you a few tips.

[Dale Torok]

Ray,

You were the 3rd judge at the Louisville show last year along with Grant and Penny Patton, so you may even remember this fish. It was in with the group that included the kohaku that took young champion.

As you can see from the pictures, the tobi hi (I'm pickjing up new terms from you and using it as fast as I can) is tiny and it is weaker now than when it went into the winter.

Look for a PM. You'll be hearing from me. Thanks for the offer. Very interesting!!!

Dale

[aquitori]

Dale I am having the same problem as you are with my shiro, but it is on the scale. I was thinking of scrapping the scale this spring. From what I have noticed it has remained in the same location for a couple of years now and hasnt gotten bigger or spread.

[gregbickal]

Looks like your getting a Shirowa just like me

[kevan]

even quite recently omosako, probably the greatest shiro breeder was using a shiro/showa as a parent, while such practices can produce great koi it can also lead to such problems, i wish breeders would not do this type of thing so often,
i mean how many of us have purchased expensive koi only to see them become near worthless buy gaining or loosing Hi? im sory to say but to a large degree the breeders themselfs produced them this way...

1. omosako...using a showa/shiro as parent.
2. sakai hiroshima, using a male ginrin shiro muji as parent for kohaku.
3. sakai isawa using a becko(sanke that lost its hi) as parent for sanke.
4. momotaro using sanke as kohaku parents.

i think in most cases though not all it leads to more problems down the line, i would also be interested to know how sakai isawa managed to produce many sanke with a weak ginrin, did he use a ginrin parent in his std sanke blood at some stage?

yes i do understand that in some cases the variety is improved and this practice can be justified, but not all cases and i have serious doubts about some of the above.

kb

[RayJordan]

Selecting parent koi is not as easy as you might think. Buy recent same variety GC female and GC male koi and breed them and it is very likely the majority of the time you get nothing but a bunch of junk. Many, many GC's of All Japan Shows have been a bust as breeders.

Proven breeders are often older koi past their prime as show koi. SOme have lost most or all of their color. Breeding is very stressful and many koi are lost each year due to the stress of breeding. Many proven parent koi were never show koi because of a injury or poor pattern but they throw some awesome babies. Breeders test breed koi in various combinations for years and even life times before a magic pairing is found. You can't judge a book by it's cover so to speak. When you go to Japan and ask to see parent koi you are often told they are in another location. Those I have seen are rarely a great advertisment for selling their babies. Of course some breeder websites show photos of parent koi as a way to market their products. Of course these show the parent koi in their prime. Often these photo are very old but still show what the koi looked like at their best.

T. Sakai sankes of the orginal Matusonuke bloodlines frequently show 20 or so gin rin scales on each side. This is considered highly desirable for this bloodline and an indicator of refined quality. These koi are not considered Gin Rin and shouldn't be as to be classified as Gin Rin ther needs to be three full rows of GR on each side.

Yes, there are some famous breeders with some pairings that have very pretty babies that rarely develop into beautiful adults. Most koi are sold as tosai so it is hard to blame a breeder for breeding these parent koi year after year. this is why you should never be overly swayed by any single breeder. The top breeders in Japan still produce many more ordinary than exceptional koi. Buy the koi not the breeder.