Choosing Sakuma Tosai.....? - Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine

johnm · 03-24-2006

Hi, my local dealer's 2006-2007 grow and show will give a choice from 40 Sakuma tosai. All are between 8-10 inches in length, and there is a choice of sanke, showa, kohaku + a few gin rin showa. The cost of the fish is approximately £95 each. There will be a lottery to decide who has 1st 2nd 3rd (etc) choice.
I have been to have a look today, and found it very difficult to decide which i would choose on the day (in 3 weeks time). The hi on these fish is orange rather than deep red, and is generally even in colour. Some of the fish did not seem to have much "sashi" and a small number had the type of kiwa which follows the shape of the scale rather than cutting across it. The showa and sanke have underlying sumi, though some also have more advanced sumi development, I do not have the skills to decide whether this is "baby sumi".
Could any users please give me a few tips on choosing sakuma tosai to help me when the time comes?

Simi Koi · 03-24-2006

generally look at the center of the Hi scale. It should be darker then the rest of the scale. This means the Hi will be thick and hold its color as the koi grows. The bluish blured areas usually mean the Sumi is coming it, but Sumi is fickle and always a gamble. As for which will be big?

I once read a theory on Koi growth potential....

If you compare the front portion of the fish from the nose to the front ray of dorsal, compared to the back half, from the front ray to the start of the tail, we will find the highest ratio has the highest growth potential. Also we can combine that with comparing the ratio of the widest part of the fish with the total length of the same two areas.

this is not my theory, but I trust its source.

dick benbow · 03-24-2006

here's a readers digest version....
forget kohaku, at 4 months you can tell what tosai are killer and you keep them and grow them on. With the other two you have to invest time to see what will happen with the black! Look at the sanke and Showa. In both cases find black strong in the head shoulder of showa and in shoulder area of sanke. even with no black showing in the mid back to tail area chances are good it will come.
Showa tosai often have heavy black at the tail that crawls off as they grow. Take the showa outside and see if you can in full light get a hint of a red tail stop back there. Look for soft red and white and of the little black you can see make sure it's the good blue black of quality even if you find it only on one patch showing. DO NOT PICK SHOWA by pattern. Focus on good body shape
and quality. Don't let a beautiful showa pattern on a Gin Rin sway your decision to buy. A GR is a GR first and showa second. Look for a good GR FIRST and trust the pattern to develop. Quality koi often at tosai will show very little sashi, but it could also be the mark of a fast developing male.(worth mentioning is to be sure and check the showa's heads to be sure they are not twisted or mis shaped ) hope this helps. Good luck and if you get one send us all a picture!

koiczar · 03-24-2006

Dick

Does your info about showas and the lack of sumi on the latter half pertain to all bloodlines? How about Torazo for example?

Mike

Brady Brandwood · 03-25-2006

Hi Johnm,

Here is a progression for you to study. This is only one possible scenario though. Showas are fascinating and complex. I work with 5 different styles of sumi here,... and each develops differently. It's important to identify the type of sumi on Showas,... then you'll have a better idea of how it will mature over the years. Beyond the type of sumi, the sex of the Koi will influence this, and the environment, as well as diet.

The Showa in the pics is a male.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

MikeM · 03-25-2006

Uhhhhh....4 more styles to show, Brady.

luke frisbee · 03-25-2006

yes Birthday boy...especially since you haven't update your koiboard in 5 weeks!

Brady Brandwood · 03-25-2006

Refresh your browser Luke-ness.

Best Wishes,
Brady

P.S. Theron sent me a pic from the Gainesville Show,... I howled!

luke frisbee · 03-26-2006

The Ron is as sneaky a Bass Turd as they come...and you must have changed it while I was typing....which makes me think the Birthday wasn't a busy one.

dick benbow · 03-26-2006

Mike,
Torazo's entry into the showa market is a relatively new effort for him. I wish ray Able had time to comment as he has the best relationship with the breeder and has brought some really nice ones home for his customers in the last few years. There is still a lot of work being put into this variety especially since the introduction of Kindai or modern showa.

I think it's good to get Brady's input as he's worked very hard and done well with his efforts on showa. Not uncommon to have to wait up to 7-8 years with the girls to really know what you've got, teaches us Patience! LOL!

03-24-2006	#1 (permalink)
johnm Tosai Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 14	Choosing Sakuma Tosai.....? Hi, my local dealer's 2006-2007 grow and show will give a choice from 40 Sakuma tosai. All are between 8-10 inches in length, and there is a choice of sanke, showa, kohaku + a few gin rin showa. The cost of the fish is approximately £95 each. There will be a lottery to decide who has 1st 2nd 3rd (etc) choice. I have been to have a look today, and found it very difficult to decide which i would choose on the day (in 3 weeks time). The hi on these fish is orange rather than deep red, and is generally even in colour. Some of the fish did not seem to have much "sashi" and a small number had the type of kiwa which follows the shape of the scale rather than cutting across it. The showa and sanke have underlying sumi, though some also have more advanced sumi development, I do not have the skills to decide whether this is "baby sumi". Could any users please give me a few tips on choosing sakuma tosai to help me when the time comes?

03-25-2006	#5 (permalink)
Brady Brandwood Sansai Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Monroe, NC USA Posts: 267	Showas,... Hi Johnm, Here is a progression for you to study. This is only one possible scenario though. Showas are fascinating and complex. I work with 5 different styles of sumi here,... and each develops differently. It's important to identify the type of sumi on Showas,... then you'll have a better idea of how it will mature over the years. Beyond the type of sumi, the sex of the Koi will influence this, and the environment, as well as diet. The Showa in the pics is a male. Best Wishes, Brady Brandwood

03-25-2006	#8 (permalink)
Brady Brandwood Sansai Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Monroe, NC USA Posts: 267	Luke,... Refresh your browser Luke-ness. Best Wishes, Brady P.S. Theron sent me a pic from the Gainesville Show,... I howled!

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03-24-2006	#2 (permalink)
Simi Koi Tosai Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 37	generally look at the center of the Hi scale. It should be darker then the rest of the scale. This means the Hi will be thick and hold its color as the koi grows. The bluish blured areas usually mean the Sumi is coming it, but Sumi is fickle and always a gamble. As for which will be big? I once read a theory on Koi growth potential.... If you compare the front portion of the fish from the nose to the front ray of dorsal, compared to the back half, from the front ray to the start of the tail, we will find the highest ratio has the highest growth potential. Also we can combine that with comparing the ratio of the widest part of the fish with the total length of the same two areas. this is not my theory, but I trust its source.

03-24-2006	#3 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,164	here's a readers digest version.... forget kohaku, at 4 months you can tell what tosai are killer and you keep them and grow them on. With the other two you have to invest time to see what will happen with the black! Look at the sanke and Showa. In both cases find black strong in the head shoulder of showa and in shoulder area of sanke. even with no black showing in the mid back to tail area chances are good it will come. Showa tosai often have heavy black at the tail that crawls off as they grow. Take the showa outside and see if you can in full light get a hint of a red tail stop back there. Look for soft red and white and of the little black you can see make sure it's the good blue black of quality even if you find it only on one patch showing. DO NOT PICK SHOWA by pattern. Focus on good body shape and quality. Don't let a beautiful showa pattern on a Gin Rin sway your decision to buy. A GR is a GR first and showa second. Look for a good GR FIRST and trust the pattern to develop. Quality koi often at tosai will show very little sashi, but it could also be the mark of a fast developing male.(worth mentioning is to be sure and check the showa's heads to be sure they are not twisted or mis shaped ) hope this helps. Good luck and if you get one send us all a picture!

03-24-2006	#4 (permalink)
koiczar Oyagoi Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,174	Dick Does your info about showas and the lack of sumi on the latter half pertain to all bloodlines? How about Torazo for example? Mike

03-25-2006	#6 (permalink)
MikeM Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 4,655	Uhhhhh....4 more styles to show, Brady.

03-25-2006	#7 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	yes Birthday boy...especially since you haven't update your koiboard in 5 weeks!

03-26-2006	#9 (permalink)
luke frisbee Oyagoi Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,451	The Ron is as sneaky a Bass Turd as they come...and you must have changed it while I was typing....which makes me think the Birthday wasn't a busy one.

03-26-2006	#10 (permalink)
dick benbow Honmei Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 4,164	Mike, Torazo's entry into the showa market is a relatively new effort for him. I wish ray Able had time to comment as he has the best relationship with the breeder and has brought some really nice ones home for his customers in the last few years. There is still a lot of work being put into this variety especially since the introduction of Kindai or modern showa. I think it's good to get Brady's input as he's worked very hard and done well with his efforts on showa. Not uncommon to have to wait up to 7-8 years with the girls to really know what you've got, teaches us Patience! LOL!