Best aerated media upgrade for 3-chamber vortex

[androal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tony Prew Sounds like you have the right idea K-1 in # 2 #3 you might want to consider green matala (the flexible type) in a coil it is available in many different diameters and I think six inches deep this works fairly well to catch the fines Now if you really want to catch the fines earlier then you might want to consider a static caldness drum in the first vortex that all the water has to flow thru to exit the chamber hint: an old washing machine drum is perfect, only miner modifications needed Good Luck with your upgrade Tony

Do you know of any references to any more info about how to do this?

[Tony Prew]

I will try to put something together for everyone including pictures
It will take a couple of days as I am quite busy right now
I'm off to the airport to pick up a very close friend of mine Masaharu Hoshino of Koda Koi Farm in Ojiya for his annual visit to the USA.

Tony

P.S. It actually only took me four hours to think up and implement one of these systems to one of my vortex's. Not all vortex's are alike so time will very

[koiczar]

Also, you talk about the matala only being 1.5" in thickness. That is true for the "sheets" but the "round" or rolled matala is 6" in thickness as Tony mentioned above. I have been using the sheet matala, alternating it in Green and Blue without spacers in my bio tank (ex measuring tank) for my quarantine system. I placed it just like the website shows. It has worked very well for 4 years now. I clean it once a year ( or more if necessary) and you just shake it a few times and the detritus or slough off just falls off.

In your case, I have to agree with the idea about the "moving bed" in #2 chamber. In the #3 chamber I would start with a green overlayed by blue/grey if you want bio action.. Now, you could place a piece of black, round matala in the first chamber covered by a piece of grey sheet at 1.5" thick. I have that in my spirex vortex. It seems to catch most of everything before going into the next chamber. This I clean once or twice a week. This has been in operation for 2 years and I feel works very well.

Aeration. I read some information about Daisuke Maeda visiting Yume Koi to look at their new bakki shower configuration. To make a long story short, he placed airstones "near the bottom" in a vortex tank. I believe these were placed right where the coned bottom began. So, IMHO, you could try it like that in your kaldnes media in tank #2 and also in tank #3 for the matala. A post made on this thread very early on talked about a round piece of air tubing type diffuser. You might want to follow up on that as that seems to be an easier way of distributing the air with more efficiency.

Best of luck. Keep us all posted on your progress. We're all interested in different ideas and how they work out.

Regards

Mike

[joe bauer]

Quote: Originally Posted by androal no specific problem - just makes intuitive sense to me that the fish would appreciate supplemental aeration. A little bit of keeping up with the Jones's I guess... I read the forums and see what other people are doing and then think that there may be improvements I could be making with my own pond. This sort of stuff has a domino effect - I figure, if I'm going to add air to the vortexes I should evaluate if I am using the optimal media. From what I have been reading it sounds like the upgrade I am considering would result in healthier water for the fish - with a side benefit of clearer water maybe? (the water is pretty clear as it is... but it can only get clearer... right?)

i don't think you can have too much aeration. i am considering putting in the system you have on a 7500 gallon pond i am building, and i am glad to know it has no inherent problems.

[mitten]

Hi Androal-

I can always find new and improved ways to be wrong but I believe that Maurice kinda thought up this stuff with the K1. His website will give you good reading read this and look around too (including plans to convert a vortex and build an air ing) and here is a video from somebody's board. (kinda long load) Static K1 cleaning from Maurice

The RMatala is 6" thick each premade section and what I have learned from reading is that the deeper media will have little biological activity, repeated shallow media can be more effective. Stack it and aerate like crazy.

The idea with the springflo in the first chamber is twofold. One, you've already got it. Choose which you would rather clean- brushes or springflo. Don't aerate the springflo, no. Stop the flow, shake, drain, don't clean, just rinse. Two, I am making the big assumption that you are pulling, or pushing maybe, more than 2000gph through this filter series. Its max rating is 2000gph so mechanical seperation could be improved with the springflo , thereby improving the rest of the filter's function.

Now, this means nothing if you toss both the brushes and the springflo and line up your chambers as #1 static K1 (daily simple effective maintanence) #2 K1 moving bed, #3 R-maltala.

A good air pump is a beautiful thing.

Mickey the windowman

[androal]

This site is a great resource! Bravo Maurice!

To summarize many of the suggestions that have come from this thread, it sounds like the 'optimal upgrade' path for my system would include:

I. ‘Optimal’ media replacement: As you suggest, pitch the springflow and brush filters and go for:

1) Static K1-type solution in Vortex #1
2) Moving Bed K1 solution in Vortex #2
3) R-Matala stacked in alternating layers in Vortex #3
II. Aerate #2 and #3 as much as possible (as someone pointed out… there is no such thing as too much aeration...?)

Questions...

1) There have been several references that make a point that the R-Matala media in vortex #3 is really NOT a 'biological' filter, but is instead more of a mechanical filter. If this is correct, then why add an additional mechanical filter AFTER the biological filter? I thought the whole point of the primary vortex was to virtually eliminate ALL particles prior to entering the biological stage? Isn't this the reason for modern 1st stage filtration inventions like 'the answer' and the reason static K1 trumps a basic vortex filter design? If so, then isn’t the water entering #3 already pretty much free of most particulate? I have heard the term 'polish the water' used to describe this 3rd chamber media, but I’m not sure I quite get the concept. I realize that this is the way the world does it, so I must be missing something here? If the goal is to get the water as free from mechanical waste as possible, prior to entering the biological filter, why not put the R-Matala in #2 to REALLY, REALLY clean the water before it goes on to the biological moving bed in #3?

2) Maurice mentions that the static K1 chamber should be cleaned daily. I currently flush the primary vortex only 1x/week and I frequently let it go a couple of weeks in between. It’s very easy/low maintenance and the water stays pretty clear (for the most part…) Will I be making a leap of magnitude in improvement in filtration w/the addition of static K1 in vortex #1? I imagine the primary benefits would be:

i. significantly greater fish load potential for the pond?
ii. crystal clear water?
iii. healthier?/bigger? Koi?
I guess I am trying to weigh the cost/benefit of the additional effort of having to perform daily filter maintenance of static K1 vs. what Mike suggests in a previous post – just put a 6" black R-Matala roll in the first chamber, covered by a piece of 1.5" gray sheet Matala, clean it 1x/week and it basically catches ‘most everything’ prior to entering chamber #2.

The static K1 upgrade represents a significant investment to have it retrofitted properly (pipes need to get changed out, new ball valve installed, etc…) In your opinion, does this investment translate into a commensurate benefit to the overall system vs. the basically ‘non-event’ solution Mike suggests? How do you go on vacation for a week w/static K1? Guess I will be training the neighbor's on the finer points of koi pond filtration???!!!

[ageinghippy]

If you are having a problem deciding about Maurice`s design, why not drop him an e-mail to clear up your questions. He really is the most helpful fella you know.

An incredible number of UK koi keepers have copied his design, even EA consulted with him and based their filter on what Maurice advised.

I think the daily filter clean is only really necessary until the water is cleaned up, because although you probably think that your water is clean already, you`ll be absolutely amazed at just how much dirt will be taken out once the `Maurice Filter` kick in. Once his own filter was up and running, he was confident enough to pop over to Australia for a 3 or 4 week holiday, with no disasters in his pond when he got back home.

Chris

[koiczar]

Androal

If any of us here had ALL the answers we would be the GURU of filtration. Since we all use different methods to get to (or at least try to) the same end result, it can become overwhelming to read too much. sometimes you have to just "trust to luck" with one path of good solid advice and stick to it for awhile to see if it is going to work in YOUR system.

From my understanding, someone correct me if I mis-speak, but the #2 chamber filled with a moving bed of Kaldnes will actually hold the fine particulates in suspension while the bacteria attached to the media has a chance to consume it. If it has time to settle to the bottom then it just sits there until you backwash it out. Sounds like somebody may even try to claim it has FIR abilities (LOL) let's not touch that discussion, I'm only joking!! There is an old saying that employs the KISS theory. Keep it simple,stupid!! This really goes a long ways to helping keep things in front of you and clears your mind to focus on what's important - clean, healthy water/environment for your fish. After all, that's the bottom line and if you're comfortable with a particular idea, I say, GO FOR IT! Just keep us posted on your progress or lack thereof.

Mike

[Russell Peters]

If it wasn't so difficult it would not be worth it, Grasshopper.

[koiczar]

Ah, thank you sensei!!???!!!!LOL!!