Bloodlines and Breeders

[MikeM]

Oh, Marie. You need to save up your thoughts until Brady Brandwood is done with spawning in a couple of months. He would so enjoy traveling each of your trains of thought.

...But your goal is quite impractical. Too many traits! You can be fascinated, however, by just taking a few and observing how the different breeders have progressed.

If I had the time, I'd like to spend a week with a breeder culling fry. I'd be happy if I could go through the fry to eliminate ones having an undesired trait or three, leaving to the breeder the real selection of desired ones... just to have the opportunity to see the full range of variation. Although I'd likely cop out if it was Ogons! LOL

[mitten]

Miss Marie!

You have two things. One, a profile with information in it, very cool. Two, a new mission... unraveling koi genetics.

Your simple post may stand quietly in the face of many who would make a practice of slicing and dicing such enthusiasm, and yet be left alone because it sounds more believable than it sounds enthusiastic. An impossible task? That's what I've heard and can easily accept. You taking a shot and maybe doing it? Accepted also. Get the graph paper and GO!

Mickey the windowman

[bekko]

The development of skin pattern occurs after conception/fertilization. While an animal may have the genetic disposition for patterned skin, the actual shape of the pattern is not inherited. There was some work done on cloning koi and another group is talking about doing it again. The problem is, of course, that cloning the genotype does not duplicate the skin pattern as that pattern does not develop until later in the process.

I stand corrected about saying that kohaku is the closest thing we have to a variety which breeds true. Mike is correct that ogons will show less variability.

-stevehopk ins

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko The development of skin pattern occurs after conception/fertilization. While an animal may have the genetic disposition for patterned skin, the actual shape of the pattern is not inherited. There was some work done on cloning koi and another group is talking about doing it again. The problem is, of course, that cloning the genotype does not duplicate the skin pattern as that pattern does not develop until later in the process. I stand corrected about saying that kohaku is the closest thing we have to a variety which breeds true. Mike is correct that ogons will show less variability. -stevehopk ins

By pattern, do you mean patches of coloration such as in the kohakus, showas, sankes, shiros, etc? What of the netting pattern/design in ochibas, matsubas and chagoi? That seems to be a constant, even though the underlying or overlying patches of color are as variable as snowflakes.

Even though pattern will always be a variable, elements like skin quality and color intensity, and even to some extent placement of these colors must certainly be genetic. Tanchos come to mind when I say this--the hi might not always be a perfect circle, but it is always hi and it is always on the head, with a predilection for roundness even if it doesn't always breed true.

So has someone actually cloned koi? I would be very interested in reading the paper that must have certainly been written while this was done. It is interesting to hear that cloning the genotype doesn't duplicate pattern and that it is developed further on down the line. I've never seen a new spawn of baby koi, but I have done some breeding with Sarassa comets and watched the development of color and pattern--what a surprise when a drab black brown or green baby grows to fingerling size and miraculously becomes white, gold or orange bodied that bloom with patterns of red or black. I've had some of my babies hold off on changing color until they were a year or two old, then within a matter of days go through total metamorphisis. One of my female Sarassas is pure white with a perfectly round tancho spot right behind the head. When bred with my red and white kohaku patterned male produces about 30% white with that same red spot and placement (though not all of those spots are round, they are all right behind the head and in front of the dorsal fin), 50% of them take on the kohaku red and white color patterning, and the rest will either be solid red or gold or white. The change from the mundane colors to the adult colors must have something to do with disguising babies so they are not such easy prey as their brightly colored parents. Could this be somewhat so in koi as well?

Marie

[bekko]

I've never selected for netting pattern and do not know how that works from a genetic standpoint.

It appears that tancho may be something of a special case and that there is a genetic propensity for the small hi plate on the head. If you spawn tancho you get higoi, shiromuji, kohaku and some tancho. Spawn kohaku and you get higoi, shiro muji, kohaku, but fewer tancho. Often time, the tancho hi plate is at the same spot on the head which develops pigment last. At one point in their development (about 1-3 inches) all shiro muji look like they are going to be tancho because they have a pink/red spot on their head. Almost invariably, that area becomes pigmented white and disappears later.

The Japanese cloned koi, but I haven't seen the paper. I think I heard about it from Brett Rowley somewhere on these koi forums. The guy talking about doing it again is a Japanese scientist working in Hawaii.

Koi do not demelanize like goldfish do. They are all either black fry or white/gold fry by the time they are about 3/8ths inch. If you're making genuine showa or utsuri you save the black ones and toss the white/gold ones at the first opportunity. If you're making kohaku, sanke or imitation showa you save the white/gold and toss the black ones. I think most other varieties (except chagoi) are also white/gold at this size, but I only have experience with gosanke. The colors continue to develop as they grow, but they do not go from brownish black to white or red like goldfish do.

I am concentrating on wakin this year and they are starting to demelanize now when they are barely an inch long. This is much earlier than oranda, ryukin or ranchu. That's a huge plus in goldfish because you can make the first selection much earlier.

-steve hop kins