Bloodlines and Breeders

[Sangreaal]

In my readings I see much reference to breeders producing certain bloodlines, but when it comes down to actual pedigrees, the information swings full circle back to the breeder instead of individual fish and their genetic offspring. So am I to understand that a "bloodline" in nishikigoi is a type of fish that a breeder breeds, hence using a breeder's name for the "bloodline" of the koi he produces from spawnings of koi he has bred, irregardless of the parentage (i.e. actual genetic bloodline) of said fish?

Marie

[MikeM]

Marie: There have been a couple of great threads on bloodlines on some of the boards. I wish I had saved them. It does become confusing because the term "bloodline" gets used in several ways. When used in the most commonly intended manner, it is really a reference to the keito a particular breeder has. "Keito" is sometimes defined as a "brand", but the meaning is deeper. It refers to the mix of genetics a breeder has brought together to produce a particular line. Some of the larger breeders have more than one keito, and some are at the point that they refer to their lines by reference to the female parent alone (as if it did not matter so much which male fertilized the particular egg, when actually they spend as much or more effort finding the right males as finding the females!).

In another sense, "bloodline" refers to genetic lines. There are not very many true genetic bloodlines, and these have been interbred to the point that finding a pureblood is neigh on impossible. You'll see references to Sensuke or Yagoyen, etc. Brady Brandwood has observed that these references are mainly useful to communicate that certain traits in a koi are like the trait in a certain old bloodline. So, if someone refers to Sensuke Hi, folks can kinda know what is meant... although you'll not likely ever see a pure Sensuke.

It gets more confusing when you realize that a lot of keitos are derived from the same bloodline. For example, virtually all of the top Sanke breeders are dependent on Matsunosuke genetics. Those genes have been mixed with every sort of Kohaku Hi to get "improvement", and back to older lines of Sanke. But then in culling, the breeders select for the koi with Matsunosuke conformation, size, etc. So, the Sanke may be known as the bloodline of a particular breeder, but is derived from the bloodline of Matsunosuke. In a sense, even the Matsunosuke bloodline no longer exists, since the original fish to whom the name was given are gone and the Sakai brothers have used other bloodlines in continually improving what they produce. So, what is produced by Matsunosuke today is not what was produced under that name in the past.

Confused? Just remember that nothing about koi genetics is static. All the breeders are seeking to produce koi better than those that ever existed. And, as a group, they are succeeding. Every year there is progress in quality improvements. Select the koi you enjoy and appreciate the fact so many have worked so hard for generations to allow you the pleasure of having it.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM ...Confused? Just remember that nothing about koi genetics is static. All the breeders are seeking to produce koi better than those that ever existed. And, as a group, they are succeeding. Every year there is progress in quality improvements. Select the koi you enjoy and appreciate the fact so many have worked so hard for generations to allow you the pleasure of having it.

Actually, you made it quite clear, Mike. Thanks for taking the time to do so. *S* It is a bit of a bummer, though, to not be able to see a real pedigree of individual fish in order to select appropriate stock for a breeding program. With a family tree one can see where all the characteristics of the bloodline come from in order to allow for avoiding or intensifying any characteristics in the family line within any given breeding program. How can an intelligent breeding program not have this data after centuries and generations of selective breeding?

It is interesting that some koi lines at least name the maternal progenitor. You can see this in the bloodlines of Arabian horses (ancient and modern), where prepotent mares of note are referred to in their offspring's name just as often as the prepotent sires that contributed to a particular type of Arabian. With access to the pedigree that blueprints a type, one can see the progression of the development of that type--what went wrong, what went right.

I wish it were so with koi. I enjoy the study of bloodlines through their pedigrees so I can understand and appreciate what the breeders did in order to create the type that they and many others enjoy.

Guess that's something I'm going to have to get used to when selecting the individual koi I admire and may eventually breed...

Marie

[KoiCop]

NKK often think breeding koi is like breeding dogs, cats and horses -- probably because they don't understand (or haven't thought about):

1. koi math
2. individual identification
3. championship potential
4. parent sets
5. flock spawning factor
6. varieties vs. breeds

1. For example, a medium-sized koi breeder might have:
10 parent sets @ 500,000 eggs per set = 5,000,000 eggs
50% hatch rate = 2,500,000 fry
99% cull rate (to food, fertilizer, bait) leaves = 25,000 tateshita
90% sold cheap (pond grade, etc.) leaves = 2,500 tosai
90% sold in fall, leaving = 250 tategoi to overwinter
90% sold in spring, leaving = 25 to go to mud pond as nisai

2. Whether your ***** pups in the closet or your mare foals in the pasture, you're not going to have any trouble visually identifying the respective relationships betwixt the two; not so with koi. With valuable mammals, photos, tattoos, implanted chips and such can identify the individual and the breeder long after they've been sold; not so with koi.

3. With valuable mammals, championship potential can be identified early on, and its potential can be realized pretty much irregardless of who buys and raises it; not so with koi. Husbandry skills over 5-11 years will determine whether a koi reaches its potential.

4. With valuable mammals, a female is bred by a male when she comes into heat or artificial insemination can be used; not so with koi. Koi spawn once a year and multiple males are utilized in a parent set to insure that the eggs are fertilized. (There goes the old pedigree chart!)

5. If the koi flock-spawn (multiple females & multiple males), all bets on parentage and/or potential are off.

6. With valuable mammals, the lines breed true; not so with koi varieties. Breed a parent set of sanke and you'll get an admixture of types and varieties. Lots and lots and lots of different kinds.

Hopes this helps to explain some of the differences in re: what you're used to.

[RayJordan]

Don,
Great post. It is important to understand that Grand Champion koi rarely make top parent koi for breeding. Lots of breeders sell the babies of GC's with special certificates at high prices. Can anyone give an example/name the offspring of a All Japan SHow GC koi that also won GC. I can give lots of examples of All Japan Show GC that was a complete bust as a parent.

[dick benbow]

good point Ray...there are lots of other great examples that can be given as well. The bottom line is that for selection purposes, a buyer has to pay their dues to learn how to select a good koi and not be influenced unreasonably by bloodline. I have seen lots of big money paid for jumbo tosai from a top breeder and then placed in a minature body of water with so so quality. All they got out of it was they could say they bought a jumbo tosai from a particular breeder. the koi never had a prayer to meet it's potential. A few decades back I paid a lot of money for a baby from mask of the diamonds, sakai-hiroshima and from the first shipment of her koi into the United states. (whoop de do!) She never made it past the first winter because i had no clue on how to keep a koi of that stature
properly.

question? now that i do know how to keep koi would I do it again. To be honest I'd rather take my knowledge and buy a koi from an unknown just to prove I've learned my stuff...after all the costly lessons along the way!

[aquitori]

Alot of breeders are selling the "Champion" offspring for alot of money. Momotaro Sakura Hime to name one and Sakai Hiroshima with the "Takeda" Sanke..etc etc..Even with the "Champion" bloodline the culling process remains the same but the prices are far great like Ray explained.

[bekko]

Thank you Don - well put.

The notion that a significant portion of a koi spawn will look like their parents is hog wash. You will be lucky if a significant portion even resemble the same variety as the parents. Kohaku are the closest thing we have to a variety which breeds true, yet the majority of their offspring will be higoi or shiro muji.

If a spawn gives you get a dozen or so good fish with patterns which are reminiscent of one of the parents, you're doing well. I do not see much value in a pedigree system for koi when 99.99% of the offspring are but-ugly.

-steveh opkin

p.s. Suppose 50% of koi offspring looked like a cross between the two parents. What would that do to the price of koi?

[MikeM]

The price would plummet and the mystique would disappear. Look at Ogons...the most beautiful koi of all, except to the connoiseurs who appreciate the rarity of a good shiroji.

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop NKK often think breeding koi is like breeding dogs, cats and horses -- probably because they don't understand (or haven't thought about): 1. koi math 2. individual identification 3. championship potential 4. parent sets 5. flock spawning factor 6. varieties vs. breeds 1. For example, a medium-sized koi breeder might have: 10 parent sets @ 500,000 eggs per set = 5,000,000 eggs 50% hatch rate = 2,500,000 fry 99% cull rate (to food, fertilizer, bait) leaves = 25,000 tateshita 90% sold cheap (pond grade, etc.) leaves = 2,500 tosai 90% sold in fall, leaving = 250 tategoi to overwinter 90% sold in spring, leaving = 25 to go to mud pond as nisai 2. Whether your ***** pups in the closet or your mare foals in the pasture, you're not going to have any trouble visually identifying the respective relationships betwixt the two; not so with koi. With valuable mammals, photos, tattoos, implanted chips and such can identify the individual and the breeder long after they've been sold; not so with koi. 3. With valuable mammals, championship potential can be identified early on, and its potential can be realized pretty much irregardless of who buys and raises it; not so with koi. Husbandry skills over 5-11 years will determine whether a koi reaches its potential. 4. With valuable mammals, a female is bred by a male when she comes into heat or artificial insemination can be used; not so with koi. Koi spawn once a year and multiple males are utilized in a parent set to insure that the eggs are fertilized. (There goes the old pedigree chart!) 5. If the koi flock-spawn (multiple females & multiple males), all bets on parentage and/or potential are off. 6. With valuable mammals, the lines breed true; not so with koi varieties. Breed a parent set of sanke and you'll get an admixture of types and varieties. Lots and lots and lots of different kinds. Hopes this helps to explain some of the differences in re: what you're used to.

Yep Don, your post does explain ALOT in the differences between breeding mammals vs. fish, and the resultant difficulty in breeding koi true to the type of themselves and their progenitors. The sheer number of koi offspring is staggering to say the least (imagine having to name each of those that make the cut of end-culling in order to create a pedigree!).

Still, it would be interesting to make the attempt to genetically stamp in a type through an even tighter breeding practice. I realize that multiple males are required to cover as much spawn as possible and that using only one male would only cover a smaller percentage of eggs. Would this be so bad? At least the genetic pool would be limited to two koi and their ancestors. Even though the number of offspring would be smaller with the diversity the same (in the beginning), some intensive line-breeding/in-breeding and stringent culling could be done in order to strengthen certain characteristics in future generations.

Having done intensive line-breeding and in-breeding in mammals and avian species, I understand fully how this can lock in both good or detrimental characteristics, how culling is crucial to this process, and when outcrossing is demanded to stabilize the line. Too much in-breeding (brother/sister, father/daughter, etc.) can intensify a desired type, but can also intensify faults--even the best of the best through these pairings can and does affect size at the very least (there are many more things that come into play here). Still, what results from such stringent breeding is strong, prepotent genes that dominate outcrosses.

In the end, should this kind of practice be a successful venture in koi breeding, would it create cookie-cutter koi and make values plummet? I don't think so. Any animal with multiple colors and patterning will produce multiple colored/patterned offspring in an individually unique way. For example, breeding Paint horses, even intensely in-bred or line-bred, will not always produce the same pattern or even shade of coloring. Breeding a Medicine Hat paint to another Medicine Hat paint will not necessarily produce another MH, and if it does, the markings will still be different. What will usually breed true in this instance? Body conformation. This makes for a wonderful pallet to put colors and patterns on and you'd think that would be desirable in koi. Still, even equine conformation can be confounded by poor husbandry, just like it is with koi.

Eventually, once I've saturated myself with knowledge of koi types and husbandry, I may experiment with breeding outside the norm to see if I can sort through all the dominant and recessive genes that make up certain types of koi. I realize this could take years with no guarantees of success. Still, the journey would be fascinating even if the destination is unsure or ends up a total washout.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained....

Marie