Pre-filtering via activated carbon...

[Lee]

How nice of you to respond -

Gracias'

Si! I found the site you named from your catalogue on the Internet.

These units all now look sophisticated and complicated and similar. And, as I have been researching carbon filters and such, I find, that there must a dozen companies each with diverse products all serving a similar purpose.

However, carbon filtration and particularly coconut shell carbon seems to be the 'best' for our purpose, don't you agree?

Thus, I will contact/write these folks tomorrow and if they don't hold a grudges against mi amigo from El Pueblo del Chicharron, I am certain they will provide a positive solution to my now lengthy research...

My best -

Lee Aronfeld
Grand Cayman Island

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by Lee Hey, This carbon treatment systems all sounds to good to be true. I gotta wonder - it is so great and so easy to operate, then why isn't it talked about (more) like filters, food, and other technological advancements?

Actually it has been widely talked about at various boards. The only catch is that the talk is usually about a small unit that attaches to your garden hose that can be bought at Sears. If you have the money then the larger units are the way to go. Less maintenence and larger quantities of filtered water.

[koiloco]

Honestly, don't waste your money erwinsan.

If your koi is healthy right now, forget about it and save the $ for another koi.

Our public water is not that bad. I never used anything including dechlor. stuff since my system stabalized, just 5% water change every other day.

I have used them all from R.O to carbon to softener. The only thing that I still use is the softener.

Ben

[junglegeorge12]

Lee, why would they have a grudge against me? I am sending them business, you could be nice and buy it thru me..... but hey it's a free world and happiness and feeling free and good is important too.....maybe u can be the Cayman's distributor?

they have something for everyone, what level of filtration are you after?

Just for carbon and dechlor?? And yes, cocunut shell carbon is great for filtration, or even just filling a 55 gallon barrel with the fibers and packing them tightly by putting a screen on top of a grate on top of blocks at the bottom and another grate and screen and some heavy objects on top with the rain water from your roof feeding it if u get good regular heavy rains like we do here.

What I would do tho, on a typical hobbyist pond and home, for as close to RO without the heavy costs as you can get (and I disagree about CA water, it sux, hard etc), would be a series of the 20" canisters with the previously mentioned selection in them, and you can even buy a commercial RO membrane and run your 55 gal drum into that and let it run slowly thru. If it doesn't want to run just run to Home Depot and grab the small pressure system. They should be on the shelf in the caymans, probably not in CA tho. Make sure you run it thru a 1 micron or smaller cartridge b 4 the membrane tho. I would go with the absolute or .2 myself. I have been running a 1 micron for almost a year and it isn't clogged. Showering in such refreshingly clean water makes the wives happy too, good clean water for laundry, dishes, etc. I don't know why but women seem to love the idea of the finest purest water thay can get. If u are going to run it to your pond, I would do the whole house.

Personally, the better softer water like Japan has makes healthier koi imho. Check the water in japan where they grow best in the wild. Low tds, soft, lower ph (6.8-7.0), etc. Maurice keeps his hardness at 70 and ph at 7.0. I think his results speak for themselves. He uses a several thousand dollar commercial RO. You can get close to the same thing for under $500-600 with those ideas I just spilled the beans about. Or I can sell u a commercial R/O unit at a deep discount.

The Sears thing works for carbon, but is of no value in terms of cartridges to reduce hardness, tds, low microns, etc unless they r carrying a new line of cartridges I haven't heard about. If u go to Homne depot they have the 10" canisters, only prob is the cartridgesd need replaced too much. You can get the canisters anywhere and flowmatic sells them seperately cheap. You can fill Sears and Home Depot canisters with the better cartridges from flowmatic or other places. The industry standards r 10", 20", 40", 70s, 90s, or Big Bubbas. 20 s or 40s will do a home pond system. Bigger stuff just means less pressure drop, more ponds, and less cartridge changing.

[bekko]

recall this one?
Is WATER SOFTENER safe for Koi?

JG, whats the point of the micron filter? It won't touch anything but sediment and bugs, neither of which are much of an issue with incoming water.

-stevehopkins

[junglegeorge12]

come over to my place and look at the 1 micron and the .2 after running for a while and you will see. Full of reddish iron color sludge and gunk. Ever looked in the old tanks at a pumping station to see the joy that awaits you there? I dont know about you but our area piping systems is old and sux. I wouldn't let a dog drink out of it, much less my koi.

The smaller micron also picks out cysts, algae, and other nasties, and some minerals. I agree with Mike S statement and like the way Maurice is treating his water too. Most of the pre RO stuff serves to preserve the life of the RO membrane. An absolute or .2 micron is not too far from an RO membrane and will make your membrane last much longer, reducing running costs.

The closer to pure H2O we get the better, some folks have tighter budgets than others to reach the best water quality they can afford. So I am all for everything we can do prior to buying a commercial RO unit, at 2-10k a pop. A home size unit will run you out of house and home buying new cartridges and membranes constantly and do not put out enuf gpd.
I do believe like JR, Mike, and Maurice that soft low tds water is better for koi and nehances their growth and overall beauty and health. I am not one of the 'oh the tap water here is fine' types. Truth be told tap water sux. It leaves the treament plant in mediocre shape and travels thru miles of corroded piping laden with cysts and algae and other things. Chlorine does not kill everything nasty, and everyhting nasty I can keep out of my body and my family's bodies and my koi I am willing to do if I can afford it, and I think most folks are like me.
flowmatic has a post ro tds reducer. They also have phosphate reducers, coconut shell gac for iron and hydrogen sulfide, kdf55_ coconut shell for cholrine redutcion and microgorganism control, flouride reduction, a calcite and coconut shell gac for neutralizing acid and post ro to raise tds, a .1 micron membrane, a mixed bed di resin for demineralization(tds reducer), cation resin for pre ro softener, etc etc.

[Lee]

Lee, why would they have a grudge against me?

GEORGE, I WAS ONLY JOKING. WITH YOUR GRACIOUS RESPONSE AND MANNER OF SHARING I WOULD DOUBT ANYONE WOULD EVER HOLD A GRUDGE OR BE ANGRY WITH YOU.
PERSONALLY, I AM VERY GRATEFUL FOR YOUR REPLY.

I am sending them business, you could be nice and buy it thru me..... but hey it's a free world and happiness and feeling free and good is important too.....maybe u can be the Cayman's distributor?

I WOULD BE HAPPY TO BUY IT FROM YOU, HOWEVER, IF ASKED, I AM CERTAIN THEY WOULD BE PLEASED TO NAME MY COMPANY THEIR CAYMANIAN DISTRIBUTOR...AND, I COULD PURCHASE IT FOR LESS. NONETHELESS, I WILL TELL THEM THE REFERRENCE CAME FROM YOU AND I WILL AGAIN THANK YOU FOR HAVING TOLD ME ABOUT THEM...

I AM ALSO INTERESTED IN KNOWING ABOUT YOUR WIND TURBINES AS NO ONE IS DOING THAT BUSINESS HERE. AND, THE MARKET 'HERE' IS WIDE OPEN - AS OUR ELECTRICAL ENERGY COSTS ARE SEVEN TIMES THAT OF THE USA. (I DON'T KNOW WHAT PUERTO RICO'S ENERGY PRICES ARE?)

they have something for everyone, what level of filtration are you after?

I AM OF THE SAME EINSTEIN MIND AS YOURSELF, WANTING THE BEST THAT I CAN ACHIEVE.
...INDEED, WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO SETTLE FOR LESS?

Just for carbon and dechlor?? And yes, cocunut shell carbon is great for filtration, or even just filling a 55 gallon barrel with the fibers and packing them tightly by putting a screen on top of a grate on top of blocks at the bottom and another grate and screen and some heavy objects on top with the rain water from your roof feeding it if u get good regular heavy rains like we do here.

AS ABOVE, WHY SETTLE FOR LESS THAN 'BEST'?

What I would do tho, on a typical hobbyist pond and home, for as close to RO without the heavy costs as you can get (and I disagree about CA water, it sux, hard etc), would be a series of the 20" canisters with the previously mentioned selection in them, and you can even buy a commercial RO membrane and run your 55 gal drum into that and let it run slowly thru.

I DON'T HAVE A TYPICAL HOBBYIST POND. NOR, DO I HAVE TYPICAL HOBBYIST KOI.

THUS, PERHAPS, YOU WOULD REPLY AND TELL ME EXACTLY THE SYSTEM YOU HAVE CHOOSEN AND WHAT IF ANY IMPROVEMENTS YOU WOULD ADD/SUBTRACT OR INCLUDE, IF YOU WERE TO NOW DO IT OVER...EVER SEEKING MORE AND MORE, BETTER AND BETTER.

If it doesn't want to run just run to Home Depot and grab the small pressure system.

WE DON'T HAVE A HOME DEPOT TO RUN TO...AND, THAT'S NOT WHAT I AM SEEKING FOR MY POND(S) ANYWAY...I WANT WHATEVER IS THE BEST FOR MY FISH. AND, MY HOME.

They should be on the shelf in the caymans, probably not in CA tho. Make sure you run it thru a 1 micron or smaller cartridge b 4 the membrane tho. I would go with the absolute or .2 myself. I have been running a 1 micron for almost a year and it isn't clogged. Showering in such refreshingly clean water makes the wives happy too, good clean water for laundry, dishes, etc. I don't know why but women seem to love the idea of the finest purest water thay can get. If u are going to run it to your pond, I would do the whole house.

OF COURSE, THE WHOLE HOUSE.
WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU WATER YOUR GRASS OR GARDEN?
DO YOU SWITCH OVER TO ANOTHER SYSTEM OR DO YOU USE THE SAME SYSTEM?

AND, WHY NOT GO FOR A RO SYSTEM, WHILST AT IT?

OR, IS THAT OVER KILL?

Personally, the better softer water like Japan has makes healthier koi imho. Check the water in japan where they grow best in the wild. Low tds, soft, lower ph (6.8-7.0), etc. Maurice keeps his hardness at 70 and ph at 7.0. I think his results speak for themselves. He uses a several thousand dollar commercial RO. You can get close to the same thing for under $500-600 with those ideas I just spilled the beans about. Or I can sell u a commercial R/O unit at a deep discount.

THE ABOVE INDICATES YOU USE A R/O SYSTEM. I HAD ONE, IT COST SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, AND IT NEVER WORKED. IT WAS COSTLY TO OPERATE AND PROVIDED LITTLE WATER. HOWEVER, THIS WAS THIRTY YEARS AGO, BEFORE WE HAD 'RUNNING WATER' AVAILABLE TO OUR HOME. NOW, OUR GOVERNMENT HAS INSTALLED WATER PIPES AND WE HAVE RUNNING WATER, SO I LONG AGO THREW AWAY THE R/O PLANT.
HOWEVER, WOULD YOU ENCOURAGE/PREFER TO ADVICE OUR USE OF A R/O PLANT AS WELL AS, THE SUGGESTED FILTER SYSTEM?

AGAIN, PLEASE BE VERY SPECIFIC IN WHICH YOU RECOMMEND...AS, I WOULD PERFER TO RELY UPON YOUR EXPERIENCE THAN TO TRY TO REINVENT MY OWN WHEEL...

The Sears thing works for carbon, but is of no value in terms of cartridges to reduce hardness, tds, low microns, etc unless they r carrying a new line of cartridges I haven't heard about. If u go to Homne depot they have the 10" canisters, only prob is the cartridgesd need replaced too much. You can get the canisters anywhere and flowmatic sells them seperately cheap. You can fill Sears and Home Depot canisters with the better cartridges from flowmatic or other places. The industry standards r 10", 20", 40", 70s, 90s, or Big Bubbas. 20 s or 40s will do a home pond system. Bigger stuff just means less pressure drop, more ponds, and less cartridge changing.

VERY EAGER TO HAVE YOUR REPLY AND YOUR SHARED EXPERIENCE

YOUR AMIGO,

LEE ARONFELD
GRAND CAYMAN ISLAND
__________________
"You know, I MUST be living in an alternate universe?! Please read this and tell me if it makes any sense?"-JR

[junglegeorge12]

Lee, thx for your response-

I would look at first the size of pond b4 picking a system. The second primary concern would be budget. A small commercial R/O will run about $2,700-3,000, there r smaller ones but I wouldn't recommend them for a large pond of over 1500 gallons or u will have the same headaches u get with a small residential system and high maintenance costs. Imho the best system is one that does everything, which is an R/O, not sure what you had b 4 but sounds like it was junk or had a problem. I recommend stuff that I know works, cheaper is always out there if u look hard enuf, just make sure it does what it says so it doesn't wind more expensive or not working.

The windmills and einstein site r a sideline for me, but do not produce enuf to be my bread and butter. I am finding my site is serving mostly to educate folks in different areas and create awareness instead of producing sales, which is fine.

I do not have just one water system because of several things. We get hurricanes and heavy thunderstorms that knock out the power here so I have to have backup everything. I have backup power that is enuf to run the house and the pond pumps and don't want to risk burning up a motor or AC compressor by adding anything. I have to have a water system that works without electricity which a normal R/O doesn't. I do my lawn and garden off of rain water. I have a very large roof that catches tons of it. I filter that thru the barrel and some sand and then water the garden and top off the ponds. Right now I am setting up a large new pond so I disconnected and moved everything and I have some ugly pipes run right from the roof...but shhhh

What it will probably be when done is an R/O like Maurice's, with a bad weather backup system of rainwater going thru the barrel filter I described and one feed going to an R/O membrane and just dripping thru on pressure from gravity constantly, and a higher one for huge rains that goes around the R/O to the pond with a ball valve I can shut if it gets to be too much and another I can open to let it flow to my garden and plantain trees. I have alot of work to do and am trying to work on the cool days and at night so I don't die from heat stroke. We have been in the middle of a series of heavy vaguadas here and it has been slowing me down.
Coming in off the street is a large settling tank, 5000 gallons of reserve water, and then a large 1 micron coconut shell with carbon, then .2 micron, and soon will be coming an R/O.

The ideal system would be exactly like Maurice has, here is a link to it for his house and pond-
http://www.koi-uk.co.uk/Using_reverse_osmosis.htm

Doing it like he did will keep the R/O system working right and the membranes lasting as long as possible.
Hard to say what the 'perfect system' for someone would be without knowing the budgetary limits, and the gallonage they want to run. The cartridge idea is just to give an option to those who cannot yet afford an R/O system but want the best water they can get and still pass a large amount of gallonage. The exact cartridges would depend on incoming water conditions and goals, budget limits, and gallonage desired. A commercial size system (which pond owners need) could range from $200 up to $600 depending on how fine they want to get and the number of cartridges desired. Most of the manufacturers I have checked have similar products and prices. Here is the real deal, buying in bulk is the way to make it less expensive, so if we get a group of four or more together we can get them much cheaper.

To sell windmills you should first learn some electricity basics, give Micheal Elliott a ring and he will help you to learn and get set up as a dealer there. It is a great forward thinking idea. Shoot me an email if u r serious about that and I will help you get going. Buy the water filter system direct from Flowmatic to keep your costs down and get set up as a dealer. You will need your money to get set up as dealers for both of them and to travel to learn the windmills and get some stock. Do you have any background in engineering, electricity, or energy fields?

[JamesPR]

Use of activated Carbon

I also believe carbon is a waste of money in a koi pond. I think carbon filters are excellent for SOURCE water. But useless in short order for an established pond ( good as a component in an emergency situation only). The reason I say this is- source water is free from bacteria, fish slime, algae and DOCs. Recirculating pond water is definitely not! So AC has a very limited useful life placed in recirculating water. It starts out by attracting all sorts of molecules to its crater-like surface. But quickly, like your filter media, it is coated with biofilm and the absorption action is lessened. After a while, it is just another surface for bacteria to grow on. And in warm water, that isn't long. Compare this to a simple water change- always 100% effective.

You can test this yourself by removing AC and placing it in a simple aquarium corner filter in say- a five gallon aquarium. A five gallon tank in which you have added some green food dye or tea. To create a standard or base line, do this first with new AC in the corner filter and track/record the time it takes for the water to clear. Now repeat the test with newly dyed water using one month old AC from your pond. See if the time interval to clearing is different. Let me know what you find out.

JR

[MikeM]

... I stopped using carbon in my aquaria about a dozen years ago. I decided it was a waste of money because the large, frequent water changes were more effective.