I Need Help Please

[Birdman]

George, I am continueing here, afraid I would type to much and lock up.

Once again I appriciate your help here, but please remenber this is what will be my secondary pond, destined to be mostly a plant/lily pond. You've seen my thread "Birdman's Indoor Pond", Birdman's Indoor Pond

This will become my primary koi only pond. I just can't afford to modify my old pond, buy and add new equipment, as this will only rob much needed money from my new pond. So I am just trying to get my PH back down to safe levels and get by untill I get the new pond going.

[PapaBear]

Your water test link shows exactly what the lab tech told you. Excellent water in virtually every way. Since the source water does not appear to even have the potential for intermittent problems it must be external environmental.
JR's point about the lavarock (or any other media for that matter) is probably good advice for everyone. Why take a chance on inadvertently introducing a contaminant. A little "Pickleing" time is always a good idea.
Keeping the mineral content properly balanced is probably the key as it not only makes the water more like a natural lake or stream, but the essential minerals are a must for proper koi and biobacter health.
All of that being said, there is another environmental factor that comes to mind that hadn't occured to me before. We are in a heavy sunspot/solar flare cycle at the moment, which changes the intensity of uv radiation bombardment at the surface. Global warming arguments aside (lets leave that geopolitical debate alone please) solar activity has a direct influence on atmospheric conditions, storm activity, and plant growth. Atypical algae blooms commonly occur during these cycles in natural lakes and streams, so is it possible that a pond that is normally clear would be similarly affected. Why else would last years perfectly adequate filtration suddenly come up short?

[Birdman]

Quote: Originally Posted by PapaBear All of that being said, there is another environmental factor that comes to mind that hadn't occured to me before. We are in a heavy sunspot/solar flare cycle at the moment, which changes the intensity of uv radiation bombardment at the surface. Global warming arguments aside (lets leave that geopolitical debate alone please) solar activity has a direct influence on atmospheric conditions, storm activity, and plant growth. Atypical algae blooms commonly occur during these cycles in natural lakes and streams, so is it possible that a pond that is normally clear would be similarly affected. Why else would last years perfectly adequate filtration suddenly come up short?

Good point Larry, and something no one has mentioned. I do know the sun cycles drasticly affects the pigeons and ham radio. So why not ponds?

[junglegeorge12]

papaBear, if you read the woman's comments carefully, she was saying that certain sulfates (which can definitely affect ph), and probably sulfur dioxide, will get in the water if there are shifts in the plates at all. An earthquake at depths are not always even felt or detectable on the surface, and happen all the time as part of nature. The plates shift all the time as they are floating in lava, and even a little nudge can release volumes of stuff. It is quite possible he has had a recent shift down there that has affected the water. The test results I have found on the site so far are at least a year old, and indicate high nitrates-

08/23/0511/22/05NITRATE (AS N) EP-A0.340000010.000000MG/L
and arsenic.

But given the age of the results, does not mean it doesn't have other things now too.
Birdman, by the time you pay for the chemicals and UV lights, you will have spent more than buying a couple 20" canisters and some cartridges specifically targeting problem or concern areas.
I understand what the woman is saying about the water, although surface contaminants are not a concern, other things most certainly are more likely to occurr down there than in a shallow well. She sounds almost more like a salesman or pr person worried about bad press than a tech. I studied physical geography and she is heralding th good points in the well while sort of stuffing the risks and concerns under the rug. Deep water does not equal healthy water. 'Pure' is a pr term.

Sun spots could certainly play a role. It may be a larger fish load and feed change are what is making the filtration come up short, if it is. Once the algae is dead another accurate test on nitrates will reveal alot more. It could be the filter was removing the nitrates and arsenic in the source water, but with added fish load isn't quite getting it done now. The algae could be consuming the leftover nitrate, fueling it's growth, and making the tests read 0. As you add fish and filter and feed load a shower is going to be more and more essential, and one does not need to be expensive. You can get pumps off of ebay for very cheap and use milk or other plastic crates for your media.

I think one test you need to do is what JR suggested if you haven't, to put some media and water in a drum for a couple weeks and test it. See if the rocks are leaching anything.

Your plants and lily pond will actually like the nitrates. Not too sure how they enjoy arsenic though.

[junglegeorge12]

Here are the results themselves, and some other areas of concern I noticed-

Approved Drinking Water Protection Plan: No
Treatment class: None
Filtration Endorsement Required: No
Owner Type: PRIVATE
Last Sanitary Survey Date: Sep 15, 2004
Source Water Assessment: No
Treatment: None
Filtration: None
Test Results
08/23/05 11/22/05 NITRATE (AS N) EP-C 0.5700000 10.000000 MG/L
06/15/04 07/26/04 ARSENIC EP-A 0.0026300 0.0100000 MG/L
06/15/04 07/26/04 ARSENIC EP-C 0.0026600 0.0100000 MG/L
06/15/04 07/26/04 BARIUM EP-C 0.0038600 2.0000000 MG/L
06/15/04 07/26/04 CHROMIUM EP-C 0.0014500 0.1000000 MG/L

09/23/03 12/31/03 URANIUM, COMBINED EP-A 0.0004300 0.0300000 MG/L
09/23/03 12/09/03 URANIUM, COMBINED EP-A 0.0004300 0.0300000 MG/L
09/23/03 01/13/04 URANIUM, COMBINED EP-C 0.0004300 0.0300000 MG/L
09/23/03 12/31/03 URANIUM, COMBINED EP-C 0.0004300 0.0300000 MG/L

07/20/00 09/08/00 Fluoride BA 0.4500000 4.0000000

07/20/00 09/08/00 Nitrate BA 0.6400000 10.000000
07/20/00 09/08/00 Nitrate-Nitrite BA 0.6400000 10.000000

07/20/00 09/08/00 Sodium BA 25.800000
07/20/00 09/08/00 Sulfate BA 5.0500000

07/05/00 03/13/01 Nitrate AA 1.1600000 10.000000
07/05/00 03/13/01 Nitrate CA 1.1500000 10.000000

09/27/99 12/27/99 Fluoride AA 0.1300000 4.0000000

09/27/99 12/27/99 Nitrate AA 0.3500000 10.000000
09/27/99 12/27/99 Nitrate-Nitrite AA 0.3500000 10.000000

09/27/99 12/27/99 Sodium AA 13.600000
09/27/99 12/27/99 Sulfate AA 2.9000000

01/03/96 12/24/96 Nitrate CA 0.6300000 10.000000

[luke frisbee]

and all this crap is why I have simplified the "condition" down to...the koi ain't sick, just give em lots of the good well water and the water will sooner or later become what YOU think the koi need.
However the koi are OK now....

If ya got good cheap water give em as much new water as consistently as you feel comfortable paying for.

keeping koi becomes Rocket Science if you make it become such

[Birdman]

Life is good! My KH and GH are still at 161. This morning my PH was 8.9 and now at 5 PM it's 9.0. So the pond is slowly comming around.
I got my savio 57 watt UV's today and they are in and going. Wounder how long it will be before I see a clearing in the water?
Next project will be a pre filter for my well water.

[Birdman]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee and all this crap is why I have simplified the "condition" down to...the koi ain't sick, just give em lots of the good well water and the water will sooner or later become what YOU think the koi need.

This is how I ran my 40,000 gal pond in WA. 18 koi, for 5 years I hardly never tested the water, back flushed my sand filter 3 times a week, and never lost a fish.
But that pond was also heavely stocked with all sorts of plants and had harder water.

If I was running this pond that way I would have never known I was in trouble until my fish were dead.

[junglegeorge12]

But Luke, anything that one can turn into Rocket Science is well friggin worth it!

I love figuring out difficult issues and hate to stop b 4 it is totally nailed and then some.

Difference between Luke and I, if we were both in front of a pond with a problem and a bottle of beer in our hand-

I would throw the bottle of beer at the the pond out of frustration if I couldn't come up with both the causes and the best solutions.

Luke would drink the bottle of beer and throw himself into the pond and call it good.

Glad to hear you will be looking at source water issues. Hope the UV lights clear it soon so u can enjoy your koi. Follow Roddy's and JR's suggestions on PP and be VERY VERY careful. I believe Stephen linked a good thread on it to the other one on koiphen. I would read that whole thing if I were you.

When do we get to see pics of the Birdman Shower?

Wish I knew where to send you to find out the safe levels of arsenic, sulfate, flouride, sodium, and uranium for koi. Anybody have any clues or know where to look?
Also, looking at the results on that site over time, it does fluctuate alot on some of the items. That tells me that there indeed are things happening down there adjusting the water for you, you might want to pressure them to do some tests now so you can see what is going on right now, or send it off for that.

[junglegeorge12]

I think one thing to keep a close eye on is the ph once the algae start to disappear, to see if the algae is indeed the cause of the ph spike up.

If it turns out worst case scenario that that is not it, then I think it will be imperative to get your source water tested for it's current condition, and to seek some remedy quickly. If that process takes longer to find the solution for and remedy than acceptable- I do believe that you can contact the Civil Defense for distilled water in large quantities, and it should be free, I know it is here. I can call them in the morning and they will pull by day's end with a truck with 50-75,000 gallons in it.