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Old 06-16-2006   #31 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Puerto Rico
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I won't Luke, it is coming along slowly. I do a little here and a little there. Making a prop from scratch is hard man.

When I was walking in my door tonight after taking my son to see 'Cars' (he has been waiting for that movie for two months now), I saw the pieces and thought, 'You know, someone should really be working on that to get it done faster.'

Then I sat down, ate some shrimp with Chespeake Bay seasoning on them(yummy), tried to fix the Xbox, and then logged on here.

The other parts are ready to go. Just need to finish the propellor.

Bickal doesn't answer my emails any more, did he change adresses or give up on me? I may have to send the parts to you to play with.
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Old 06-16-2006   #32 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
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I just saw a photo of Luke's back yard. He doesn't need any more stuff.

-ste vehop
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Old 06-17-2006   #33 (permalink)
Sansai
 
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The most efficient point in a centrifugal pump’s impeller is where the water entering the volute stays with the particular spot on the impeller fluke (spot on the circumference. The volute is gradually shaped to accept the water so the pressure around the entire impeller is equal. Increase the head pressure over that point and the water slows while the impeller doesn’t. Load on the motor decreases because the impeller slips a little through the water. This slip increases until the impeller load is zero and the motor load at minimum for that pump. A situation where the pressure isn’t equal all around the circumference exists and that energy is against one spot (120 deg from the beginning of the volute on bearings and seals.

That’s why the design curves you see on the manufacturer’s pumps are at zero flow at maximum head.

On the other hand, a reduction in head will allow the water to flow through the impeller faster and it will actually advance around the volute faster than the impeller is turning. This will move the pressure point to 240 deg.

That pressure is at best wasted and results in a decrease in efficiency. If you visit an industrial installation and look at the head pressure of it’s centrifugal pumps you will see that they are working at a much higher head than their lowest head. This is the reason for it.

A pump should be the last item selected. When you know the flow you want and the head needed to get that flow you can select the pump with it’s sweet spot (design point) closest to that head/flow.

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Old 06-17-2006   #34 (permalink)
Honmei
 
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SO JG...propeller pump
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Old 06-17-2006   #35 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke frisbee
SO JG...propeller pump
yes Luke?

So now that Rich has found a way to make water go faster that than the force driving it, he has discovered a net gain in energy and solved the world's energy crisis/ we can shut down all the nuke plants and run RichL pumps instead. Won't that be fun-ny?
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Old 06-17-2006   #36 (permalink)
Sansai
 
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George, you sound like you have enough background to grasp what I was trying to say. What I said is pretty basic pump operation.

After graduating from an electronics apprenticeship program, I went through an electrician apprenticeship program. Later I worked for the Navy as a Systems Test Specialist overseeing installation setup and certification of Naval systems. I had to understand pumps and motors well because I trouble shot and adjusted them for silent running on subs and had to know where problems like improper loading came from. In my 40 year career I troubleshot, tested and evaluated Power Generation and distribution systems, Industrial control systems, large hydraulic systems and lots more.

When I post, I’m trying to pass on the basic reasons for the things we encounter. My hope is that some of the basics eventually take hold and people do things because they have a basic understanding. Lots of the stuff we see on these boards and in magazines is not sound. It’s generated by a hobbyist or dealer with a few pieces of understanding and their inexperience creating the rest. They’re not wrong for doing that, it’s human nature to believe we have all the information when we just don’t realize there’s more to know.

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Old 06-17-2006   #37 (permalink)
Jumbo
 
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Well, Rich L, you may have handed me a couple pieces to the puzzle or of course I still might not have a clue.

The lowest head restriction allows the largest volume of water to be pumped. But there is an amount of head restriction that can be applied to increase the ratio at which energy is converted to flow by the impeller...using less energy than a pump run without head. So, when spending a dollar to push water with a centrifigal pump you could push a little more at the sweet spot than at free flow.

I've read that the sweet spot is indicated by where the graphs of flow/head and flow/watts intersect. I know the impeller design affects how the energy is converted to flow but have little understanding of why and how. Thanks for taking a stab at an explanation. I'll look for more.

Can you offer any background or foundation information that would be a kicker to the LukePump effort? A low cost, low operation cost, low head, high flow, propeller pump?

Mickey the windowman
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Old 06-17-2006   #38 (permalink)
Honmei
 
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RichL,
If ya can do that I'd be what I rarely am...ecstatic
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Old 06-18-2006   #39 (permalink)
Sansai
 
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Hi Luke,

You put it out and others will develop it, in time. But I have to remind myself again and again, the real goal isn't to win an argument.

Thanks mitten, you pointed out the confusion I created. The pump’s KWH/gallon of water is most efficient at that point. Often, the proper pump is a larger pump that operates at its design point rather that one operating at an extremely low head.

You picked that up faster than most, are you an engineer?

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Old 06-18-2006   #40 (permalink)
Oyagoi
 
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Union classes are exactly what I figured with you. I noticed you said the same thing I said in my original two posts on the issue, but surrounded with stuff that does not really apply to low head sequence pumps. So I guess if I was 'way off base' you must have been too....

My history is I grew up in Local 602, completed RSES in less than a year with 100% on all exams and went to GMU for EE. My grandfather was a Navy vet who fought on the USS New Orleans throughout all of the Pacific battles from Pearl to the peace ceremonies in China. He was a firecontrolman. My father and family worked in mechanical and controls contracts with Energy Management, who develops the equipment, automation and controls systems before it gets to the Navy ships. My father's company Cold Craft just finished a refrigeration refit in the White House he is very proud to have worked on. He is considered one the best mechanical and refrigeration experts in the world. We helped design Energy Management systems and integrate them into all types of applitcations, to give real world feedback prior to use on Naval ships and critical applications.
I worked as a troubleshooter for newly installed developmental systems in government and industrial settings and have worked on pumps and compressors larger than houses, several stories high, that have doors on them to go inside and work. I brought my younger brother into that industry and he now runs his own controls solutions company that integrates controls systems and equipment and handles high security databases and systems. We have worked to help develop Dunham Busch vane and centrifugal compressors, he was a DC area supervisor for Johnson Controls, and we did commercial and industrial refrigeration for decades. He works on projects for the Navy Yard, Homeland Security Dep Headquarters, NASA Research Center etc. They do alot of integration of Seimens, Johnson's Metasys, and other sytems and controllers, and get the HVAC and mechanical to work right while maintaining complete security on applications where it does not work when newly installed, it is already connected to the grid and the phone lines, and the engineers cannot figure out why and all their union trained techs 'fix' it, but it still doesn't work.

Most of what you wrote applies to some pumps in some circumstances, but not a sequence designed for low head. It is already in it's sweet spot with the outlet tube as are most pond pumps. They are not designed nearly the same as low noise sub pumps, which have far more durable bearings and less flexible impellers etc. Low noise and efficiency do not work together. Slippage will make the motor run quieter, but will also create fluctuations and cavitation that results in loading and unloading the motor rapidly and repeatedly. A large hp sub motor is designed to endure that like nothing. A fractional pond pump isn't, it will shorten it's life dramatically.
So for pond pump purposes what I said was 100% correct. For sub pumps what you said was half correct and half misapplied confusion from what appears to be an inerchange of terms and poor explanations from teachers resulting in crossing issues and terminology confusion. For instance, impeller efficiency and overall pump efficiency are related, but not the same thing. Locating noise causing issues and resolving them are not necessarily Energy Management or efficiency issues, but mission critical and application issues. If you get an impeller slipping 100% it still draws power. The curves you two spoke of do not always cross at the most efficient point, but most often do. Each pump(wet end) is different, and a sequence prefers low head and low restrictions. Other pumps are different. That is why you can find a 1/8 hp pump that moves 4500 gph and a 1/2 hp pump that moves 600 gph at much higher head tolerances.
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