sequence pumps

[Rich L]

Geez, there's a whole family of you? Wish I could be there. The Navy was my most exciting work. I have been asked if I would like to go back to work and my ready answer is no. I'd still say no if it was the Navy, but I'm actually ver the hill. Your brother's work sounds like what I did.

You did point out an error I made. The most efficient point isn't where the power/flow curve crosses the line of the h4ead/flow curve. The power/flow curve peaks a ways after that point and starts to decend. That's where the design point is. Usually the system design is aimed a little after that point so aging restrictions, etc bring the system a little closer to the most efficient operation.

Still, the sweet spot is 40 to 50% up the curve on pumps design curve.

There's an excellent series of articles on pump hydraulics in the AKCA book Basic Koi Ponds, Filters & water. The author is J. Harlen Glen who was the chief engeeneer on many of the large water displays in Las Vegas. Another book well worth having on the book shelf is Aquacultural Engineering by Wheaton. It's the best general engineering book I've found for our hobby. It's expensive, I think about $170, but used the price drops rapidly and most of the stuff doesn't change other than the new technologies. They republish it about every 10 years and the previous one was 1992. Most hobbyists feel it's too technical but you won't be available for days when you get your hands on it.

[maryland_ponder]

In some areas Conduit is not allowed as odd as it seems & there is electrical cabling made for direct bury. I would also suggest using buried marking/warning tape after you have filled the trench about halfway. This will insure that the marking/warning tape will be dug up before the wiring & hopefully prevent any damage. Dont forget to call the local miss utility before digging to have any pipes or existing utility lines marked.

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters You can't run wire underground without conduit, so I was assuming that was what you meant. You really shoudn't bury any 110 wiring underground without conduit to protect it from shovels or rodents. You can not have any 110 wiring run above ground either unless it is protected. Romex can be run in walls or in a crawl space if you follow certain requirements. There is a direct burial wire available, but it must be 18" below grade.

[junglegeorge12]

I left them there and headed for Puerto Rico, for some fun in the sun and to raise my family and help down here with some things, and am starting a small koi farm and biz as a project to breed the best quality and size in this hemisphere over many years. My son loves koi and I intend to leave it to him to take it even further. I also hope to use the previous knowledge I have gained to help the hobby and the average hobbyist to be able to afford larger and more awesome ponds, high volume showers and waterfalls via a prop pump, and to heat them affordably. Even the ultra wealthy would like to be able to move more water more economically and extend their growing season more.
I have a project on the back burners of developing a hi tech pond and farm automation and monitoring system, and make a downgradeable version of it for home hobbyists to enjoy their ponds and be able to hook a cam up and show everyone their pond live. There are several quality systems out there for small commercial and industrial that can easily be adapted, but they are usually too pricey for hobbyists. The software platforms that exist for koi farms are rather primitive and old school. Hard to use, hard to understand, and even harder to get them to do everything you need and want. The junk being pawned off to folks as the 'best' makes me shake my head in wide eyed wonder. Saddening and sobering in a way, especially when you see the pricetag for it.
I want folks to be able to open a single window and monitor and adjust everything they want on as many ponds as they want, from pump flows to water temp to ph, kh, gh, DO, TDS, fresh water changes, feeding, vortex flushing, etc etc, even to showing their koi online to lights and music for guests from a huge database with a click. Party time.
Right now to adapt a Johnson system would be the best and most reliable option, as well as the most versatile, but would cost 2-3 grand at least to do it well, and much more for a whole farm. Honeywell stuff doesn't really meet where it needs to to do it all effectively. Seimens would be slightly cheaper but not as versatile and difficult to integrate. To custom build off the Johnson platform and use existing controllers and sensors ourselves will take the time and investment of a team, but once done will get the price for an awesome automation package down to $600 or so per unit for home hobbyists. Of course that would include all the home security stuff they would ever need. ADT's system just won't work on a laptop or home computer, it just monitors, no real controller or computer adjustable automation. The little digital wallmounts are cheap (or at least should be) but don't do much and are not real automation, more work to adjust those than a manual control, and manual controls break less.

Alot of the pond controls and stuff out there selling as high end hi tech is junk with big names, and I want to see that changed over time. The heating system controllers are primitive and not the best tech being applied. But looking at the hobby as a whole there is a need for more economic heating and better controls, and for more economic ways for the average hobbyist to afford and run a high volume pump to have a large enuf pond for their goals and dreams. Water volume thru their filter is what determines pond size and water quality, and that is what determines growth rates and final size(besides dna and feeding). My hope is that as that is done more hobbyists will be able to afford to raise koi competitively and to their full growth potential, and simply enjoy a much larger pond, shower, and waterfall with larger and happier, healthier koi. If your pump doesn't cost so much to run you can have a larger pond and buy better grade koi.

I know a guy who installs ponds and large aquariums in casinos and hotels in vegas, and he knows about as much about controls, pumps, filtration, and HVAC as I do about the aquatic life on Mars. I would be interested to read that book though to see his take on things. For me none of this is new. Water systems are the same whether they are for koi, industrial processes, steam power, nuclear reactor cooling, or chillers and boilers. Although all very different the same basic principles apply.

I see keeping koi and breeding as an art, not a science, and would like to bring creative ideas from the past into this. But, I enjoy the actual koi and being at the ponds doing the work with them much much more than working on an automation system or pump for advancement. So I will do those things, but in my time and as a second priority to the koi themselves.

The rest of the family is still back in DC enjoying the beltway rat race and the high security clearance world. I have no desire to go back to that at this point in my life, but would like to see them more often.

[maryland_ponder]

Junglegeorge one thing is for sure the 495 beltway traffic hasnt gotten any better!

[junglegeorge12]

Yeah, I've heard it's gotten worse since I left. Down here they really do not know what traffic is. They also do not know how to drive here, but that's another story. Here a long commute to work is considered anything over 20 minutes. I do not envy the folks driving two hours each way in DC traffic for work every day. Horrible way to spend your time off work.

[Rich L]

Take a look at the Hach Sonde units. I have a DataSonde 4 that monitors pH, ORP, DO, TDS, CONDUCTIVITY and TURBITIDY. Something like the YSI multiprobe in the AES catalog.

There are ports for three more probes and one of the probes available is for ammonia.

The unit will work into a serial port and the software is available free from the Hach site.

I picked up two from EPA surplus so I’ve been able to use one for spare parts.

I’m mentioning this to turn you on to some inexpensive, ready made sensor packaging and some of the software may be useful. This program was for remote monitoring so there are no control outputs to respond to problems. Johnson has many calculators to observe multiple data inputs to create a particular response when the system calls for it, such as doing a water change to respond to high ammonia readings when the pH has crashed and the incoming water will raise the pH. Enthalpy controllers did the same thing back when I was working with Johnson stuff; I couldn’t guess what the potential is now.

[bekko]

JG, several folks have decided to turn the aquatic monitoring world upside-down with remote sensing and telemetry. Royce Instruments in New Orleans is one of the most persistent, but now that some deeper pockets have gotten into it, they can not compete. We went through a couple of iterations and each set-up was a heart break in its own way. To me, the bottom line is this..............
If you feel compelled to watch water quality in real time, your whole system probably sucks and the money would be better spent to upgrade the system rather than installing monitoring equipment to tell you when it's crashing.

-stevehops

[junglegeorge12]

No response = no automation, not much better than test kits really. Probably also has accuracy and reliability issues. Kind of risky, especially with the possibility of malicious hackers out there. Breeders and dealers really need a secure system like a Johnson. I cannot see putting as much as some of them do into their facilities and not having it. Bio-security is vital in today's world.

Johnson has taken it over the edge with their Metasys systems an the new upgrades on it. It is unreal what they are doing with it now. Now it has virtually unlimited inputs with unlimited responses. It would take me hours just to list some of it's capabilities.


A cheap monitoring system that calls you with an alarm is helpful in certain circumstances, but you need true automation if you are out of town to do anything and to stay out of the danger zone.

[bekko]

Hardware and communication are seldom the problem. The largest issues are bio-fouling on the probes and the labor required for cleaning and maintenance. Automated chlorine wash of the probe tips and automated recalibration at some interval helps, but does not totally resolve the problem. There is a big difference between monitoring the environment in a building or mountain stream versus the biologically-rich environment of a koi pond.

-steve ho

[Rich L]

I agree Bekko, especially the need for maintenance.

Most of the folks interested in automation are simply enthusiasts who like technology.

As hobbyists develop systems the designs will evolve. Automation has been in industry for almost 4 decades. The Johnson Controls George is talking about does anything we do manually and it can determine the optimal conditions when deciding to make a move. While it’s doing that, it’s safe enough to use on systems that would be disasters if it malfunctioned. I just haven’t seen specific sensors line ammonia, Total Alkalinity, etc, but that’s not a problem.

George just wants to make it cheap.

While I’m on it, monitoring can be used as a training aid and even a way to point out problems such as extremely low oxygen in the pre-dawn hours. Mine are portable and can show a pond owner what’s happening in their pond over 24 hours. And can do it on a graph so changes in pH, oxygen and temperature can be compared to another parameter.