How koi evolved in Japan the last 35 to 45 yrs ago

[tewa]

Hi guys

This is one topic I am quite interested in because as I mention earlier Australian koi are probably at the level of Japanese koi around that time.

I know that australia lacks a few very important things.

1) Number of breeders
2) Number of mud ponds
3) The introduction of magoi blood
4) Heated facilities

Was it because of the introduction of heated facilities in winter that helped breeders to identify the faster and better quality koi within the line and thus helped refine the genes for the next generations.

Was it the improvement in food, breeding techniques (artificial spawnings)?

Besides the famous matsunosuke line with magoi blood, other nishikigoi have progressed to jumbo sizes say in kohaku (momotaro eagle 98cm, sakai of hiroshima's donguri and sakura lines) and showas, omosako shiro utsuri in the 80 plus cm range.

Is it just due to the continuous breeding of miliions upon millions of fry and selecting those with a bigger bone structure that helped evolved into todays jumbos.

Here in Australia besides the handful of commercial farms that breed koi (none of them produce high quality large koi for retail), most koi are bred in the humble backyard, most are around 5 to 10 ton breeding fry ponds a few are lucky enough to have 45 to 90 ton pools that are converted to ponds and some breeders with lots of space have a few 60 ton to 100 ton dams. Still nothing in the scale of japanese mud ponds.

Can you guys suggest things that the japanese breeders have done to evolve their koi to help the aussie backyard breeder?

TEWA

[bekko]

Great questions. Hopefully someone out there can shed some light on them.

I know nothing of Japan, but suspect that plain old selective breeding is responsible. This is aside from the introduction of magoi blood in the matsunosuke line. However, the speed with which selective breeding can improve the gene pool is directly related to your #1 and #2; number of breeders and ponds. It's a numbers game. The more juveniles you have to select from and the more growout space you have to rear them, the faster the selection process can advance.

That being the case, it would follow that Australia is destined to fall farther and farther behind. The limited number of breeders and amount of pond space devoted to koi will dictate that the selective breeding process advances at a slower pace than it does in Japan.

I would view the need to heat water during the winter as a handicap. There are practical and economic limits to the amount of space which can be heated. If you are compelled to move everything inside during the winter because the countryside is going to freeze solid, then the number of tosai which can be carried through their first winter becomes the limiting factor in the numbers game. It is amazing to me that Nigata is the koi homeland. It seems that if the cultural roots of koi were in Okayama or Hiroshima, the progress would have been even more rapid.

-stevehopki

[junglegeorge12]

DNA
Food
Water quality
Water space
Length of growing season

Those are the main factors. If the breeders there are doing the bottom four, the only thing left is to find a way to inject better dna.

One way, take the top koi and do some magoi crossbreeding of your own. Another, rent a small yacht and take a trip to Japan, and sneak it in. Get techy and import frozen eggs and sperm from Japan's finest...or move to sunny Puerto Rico and start a breedery here with an all year growing season and be my neighbor, free from ridiculous laws and from snotty.....I will be quiet now.....

[tewa]

Hey Bekko

Fortunately here the winters are not so bad and tosais survive through the winter just fine. In the areas where a longer growing season might be possible koi are considered as pests and are illegal. Only two states in Australia are allowed to keep koi (another negative).

And probably the most important thing is that not many are willing to come out with the initial capital outlay to do some serious breeding. Most koi sell around the price range of below 1 thousand dollars, and there are only a very few hobbyist willing to pay 1000 to 2000 for a koi. Beyond two thousand is very rare indeed. The cost of producing high quality is just too high for someone trying to make a living from it. The market here for koi is really the 1 to 5 dollar koi that are often sold at pet shops, aquariums and nurseries. Most of the commercial koi breeders here have to satisfy this market first as its their bread and butter, this restrains their resources to be able to concentrate and produce high quality koi. I sure hope the hobby grows to a state where high class koi will be in demand enough for more people to breed commercially. To set up a proper new farm in this present day would cost a lot of money we are talking a few million by the time you pay for the land, build proper heated facilities to grow koi in the size of 70cm, or even do dig proper mud ponds.

Sigh

[tewa]

DNA
Food
Water quality
Water space
Length of growing season

Those are the main factors. If the breeders there are doing the bottom four, the only thing left is to find a way to inject better dna.

One way, take the top koi and do some magoi crossbreeding of your own. Another, rent a small yacht and take a trip to Japan, and sneak it in. Get techy and import frozen eggs and sperm from Japan's finest...or move to sunny Puerto Rico and start a breedery here with an all year growing season and be my neighbor, free from ridiculous laws and from snotty.....I will be quiet now


Hey JG

We have the space in terms of land Australia has plenty of it, but most people dont have the money to convert good farmable land for the purpose of farming nishikigoi.

Water is relatively soft not as good as japan, water in sydney is around 130 to 150ppm, it could be better in different areas but not at japans level. Maybe closer to the mountain ranges the water would be softer. But underground water here is typically much higher, sometimes with too much iron and copper, and salt and calcium.

Growing season really is only about 6 to 7 months.

As to DNA, I dont even know anyone that has magoi here, its not farmed for food here, there are wild carp but i think it would be quite difficult to find a 1.3m specimen to try to breed with. That was why I was wondering how other nishikigoi besides koi with magoi blood have been able to develop to the jumbo sizes.

may have to think about moving to where you live mate

[mrbradleybradley]

Hi Tewa

Having thought long and hard about Aussie Koi and size, let me make a few observations.

- I have been keeping koi since I was 14. Back then getting any koi over 50cm was a fine achievement. 20 years later, we have good Gosanke approaching 80cm and several non-gosanke over 80cm. I have even been told that there is a kumonryu in Aus that is 93cm in length. In the last 20 years of genetics, Australian breeders have done extremely well to add length.
- Australian hobbiests are very good at culling males. This years KSA Grand Champion was a male. I would theorise that there are plenty of females who could have made 80cm if they had not been culled out.
- Wild carp in Australia - I have been searching fishing forums and talking to a couple of freshwater fishermen in Sydney. The largest size anyone has come across so far is 68cm. Our homemade koi are bigger.
- I do not believe we have any magoi in Australia.

BB

[tewa]

hey Bradley

I have yet to see any gosanke in the 80s in Australia, I have seen a few in the seventies but they are all past their prime (in my opinion) would love to see others if you have photos. And I dare say those that even reach seventy are few and far apart. Yes there are some remrkable size ogons and kawarimono even then there are not that many well in the 80 to 90 range.

When you see small ponds growing gosanke to 70 plus cm overseas at still a young age you wonder really how far apart we are in terms of genetics. Especially 5 yr old gosanke in the 80s and 90s (these fine specimens were grown with mud ponds but you get what I mean the yearning for just one or two to be in the pond just about kills you )

These are just my opinions anyway. I think we are still a long way from where a hobbyist can goto a retail outlet and purchase a 50 to 60cm (medium grade japanese quality) koi on any given day.

tewa

[dick benbow]

There are many similarities between your mutual operations. In japan when the industry first started most were backyard breeders who specialized in a few know commodities. not the big businesses we see today.

Japan's society and economy was such that the industry definetly benefited from the wealth in the big cities...where land,water and a garden were signs
of prosperity.Being a national fish along with the bragging rights helped as well.

Toshio sakai with his magoi, and sakai of hiroshima with his sensuke bloodlines
definetely made inroads to bigger koi. Something big meant it was old and that was looked up to in the society. Today's modern koi are 5 or 6 so it proves that
good food, genetics and room to grow does make a difference.

My opinion these days is so many world wide koi keepers have the dream of big koi and big genetics only to put them in smaller more crowded ponds, there by nullifying what they paid for.

Sounds like from what I've read your at a disadvantage because you can not get your hands on the genetics it takes to breed big koi...but from a business standpoint is that what your customer wants?

[tewa]

Hi Dick

From all those that are know of in the hobby yes we definitely big koi that are still young and look good.

I am keen to see how they develop the sensuke kohaku lines to the size they are today, the actual farming and culling techniques.

tewa

[junglegeorge12]

Culling like that will take many generations. Easier and faster to smuggle decent parents in tewa. If you get caught, tell them luke and nancy held you at FIR point and made you do it.