Are we doing what's best for us or the KOI

[Mike T]

Aloha to all:

I have crystal clear water in both our ponds, koi are healthy, color is OK and growth is moderate...
I visited a friends home this past Friday... His pond is the same size as ours but his fish load is probably twice as heavy as ours (10 in 1500gallons vs 15 to 20 in his)... Our koi are are all ni, san and yonsais...

I was shocked by two things, his water looked like crap, so bad that he had to use a net to bring the koi up to the surface to see them through the green water...

Surprise #2 was the size, of his koi... While ours are in the 15-20" (1, 26" + Ochiba) range... his are 28-30" with good conformation, color and of course patterns...

Which brings up the question... Are we keeping our ponds too clear to the detriment of our koi's health and well being... On the surface it seems that I may be vs. my friend who actually cultivates green water to add to his ponds if they become too clear...

Is there a happy medium between the two... Should we let our ponds go green for various periods, during the year... What would be the best time...Summer, Spring? For how long?

Aloha! Mike

[elunned]

Green water can create pH swings, but it is important to remember that appearances can be very deceiving. Water that looks crystal clear AND is free of ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte may lack trace nutrients - or buffers to protect against pH swings or crashes. As long as the green water tests out well (i.e. the water quality and water chemistry are stable and excellent and DO levels are high 24/7), my main concern would be that if you cannot see the koi, you cannot see problems develop.

Both ponds are not large (about the size of my own) with significant stocking levels. Without knowing more about the filtration and turnover, water changes and feeding practises, I would hesitate to make any assumption or comparisons about which set-up works 'better'. FWIW, I am curious about nitrAte levels in each system. Green algea makes for great color, but also contantly reduces nitrAtes. I get suspended algea problems in the spring, but once the string algea takes off the pea soup is gone. (If I keep up on Koi Clay additions, the string algea diminishes, but I frequently skip treatment. The string algea doesn't bother me and gives the koi something to much on.)

A well established pond with a mature biofilter seldom has constant issues with suspended algea, but it sounds like your friend cultivates his elsewhere. That fact in itself indicates that his water keeping skills are probably on par with your own.

Koi keeping requires a balance of determing how to keep the koi healthy while keeping the hobbyist motivated/inspired. Koi thrive when grown out off site in a mud pond, but you miss out on the pleasure of feeding them in the morning and evening while observing their grace and beauty.

Two years ago I lost my goromo to a heron (first visit in 7 years). David tented the pond with shadecloth which stayed up all last summer. I was busy with a new baby, but also neglected the koi because I couldn't see them. I got very little enjoyment from my pond last year and had considered filling it in until Liana is able to swim. (It will be rebuilt and restocked once some higher priority projects are completed.) The shadecloth came down this spring and the koi are getting much more attention. I get in every week to twirl and hurl the algea under the biofilter. Liana loves helping feed the koi, so I am probably going to keep my mutts around for another season or two. When I couldn't see them, it was much easier to contemplate giving them away.

[keokoi]

[quote=elunned] my main concern would be that if you cannot see the koi, you cannot see problems develop.

QUOTE]


I agree there is a balance to feeling how comfortable you are with what you can and cannot..

I am a firm beleive in Green water though as I have tested many time with it and it seem like a go for how good the condition of the koi look... But I sure do try to keep the water green enough where I can see them..

Joe

[johnsmith]

Absolutely Lynn. Water for koi does not have to be spotless or like swimming pool water but if it is murky or green it dang well better be healthy and alive.

The real conversation is :

a) what is the difference between green water in a mud pond vs. a closed system barkyard pond? And what is the difference between green water in a closed and an semi-open system

b) as an extension of a), what is the danger of running a closed system like a mudpond or a semi open system. pH values being a huge outcome of murky or green water out of control. Too green, and your pH is at the ceiling and too cloudy white, and your pH is likely to crash through the floor.

IF, and only if , you understand the reasons behind what I just said should you attempt or allow water to be green or murky. Otherwise you are just lucky, until you're not. JR

[Steve Nguyen]

imho, green water is more of sort eyes for koi keepers. fish are fine with green water.

Steve

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike T Aloha to all: I have crystal clear water in both our ponds, koi are healthy, color is OK and growth is moderate... I visited a friends home this past Friday... His pond is the same size as ours but his fish load is probably twice as heavy as ours (10 in 1500gallons vs 15 to 20 in his)... Our koi are are all ni, san and yonsais... I was shocked by two things, his water looked like crap, so bad that he had to use a net to bring the koi up to the surface to see them through the green water... Surprise #2 was the size, of his koi... While ours are in the 15-20" (1, 26" + Ochiba) range... his are 28-30" with good conformation, color and of course patterns... Which brings up the question... Are we keeping our ponds too clear to the detriment of our koi's health and well being... On the surface it seems that I may be vs. my friend who actually cultivates green water to add to his ponds if they become too clear... Is there a happy medium between the two... Should we let our ponds go green for various periods, during the year... What would be the best time...Summer, Spring? For how long? Aloha! Mike

[johnsmith]

I have to disagree in most cases- green water in a closed system is a run away train unless managed very carefully. If you measure pH you will find that pH swings can go from 7 to over 9. You will also notice that algae counts will climb as algae is very short lived and the cells die and accumulate on the pond floor creating a bed for massive aeromonas proliferation. This MUST be drawn off on a regular basis or the fish WILL get ulcer disease. If you aerate, add baking soda, clay( for shade) and draw off bottom water regularly as well as dilute water with water changes you can manage it, as long as you know you have a tiger by the tail.

It is also worthwhile to remind people that a closed system backyard pond is a different biological model than a Japanese mud pond. One operates with bacteria as a dominate species and the other is a seasonal shift from algae as a dominating species to bacteria as a late season species. In the case of a mud pond, stocking levels need to remain moderate or that system too will collapse.

John Smith ( AKA JR)

[Mike T]

Aloha guys:

Not sure what's going on with JR and KBB and don't need or want to know...

But I have this to say, when he's on his meds he has a lot to offer, as in this Green water thread... He's the cog that keeps the NI board popping... He's the "go to" guy when you have legitimate questions and/or problems... He's the guy who'll make this a better board... So have a heart let him on, under his own JR signature.

It's that S. C. guy you have to watch, especially if you're a frog lover...

Aloha! Mike T

[johnsmith]

Thanks Mike, but we think it is still likely a computer/ virus protection problem at this point? who knows? And yes, Nurse Ratchet has indeed given me my cup of psychtropics this evening so I'm on my very best behavior!

Best regards from somewhere over the cookoo's nest! JR

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike T Aloha guys: Not sure what's going on with JR and KBB and don't need or want to know... But I have this to say, when he's on his meds he has a lot to offer, as in this Green water thread... He's the cog that keeps the NI board popping... He's the "go to" guy when you have legitimate questions and/or problems... He's the guy who'll make this a better board... So have a heart let him on, under his own JR signature. It's that S. C. guy you have to watch, especially if you're a frog lover... Aloha! Mike T

I have no problem stating to all of you that there is nothing intentional going on between KB and JR. He isn't banned and I don't think he ever has been at KB. I can state for a fact that he has not been banned since I have been a mod. Now with all that said, there is a problem somewhere for sure and hopefully we will get it figured out. Rest assured if I find out anything on this end that JR will be the first to know and I'm sure JR will let us know if he finds anything on his end.

[junglegeorge12]

Why do all the wierd things happen to people who r already slightly paranoid? No wonder he needs meds!