Rambling About Mud Ponds, Natural Ponds and Koi Ponds

[bekko]

Fry ponds have to be drained prior to stocking. The idea is to eradicate larger life forms which may be predators and start the biological successional process from scratch to provide food for the fry. Tosai and older can be placed in ponds which have not been drained because they are the top predators in that environment and forage on things which may be large enough to eat a fry.

As soon as a pond is created, the process which turns it into a marsh or bog begins. There is an accumulation of organic material and some erosion of mineral material. This accumulation accelerates as green water gives way to larger algae, larger algae gives way to submerged vascular vegetation and submerged vegetation gives way to emergent vegetation. Without intervention, the pond will eventually fill itself in. Occasional draining and working-over the bottom counteracts this process and oxidizes excess organic matter to lower the oxygen demand when the pond is refilled.

-stevehopk

[Brady Brandwood]

An enjoyable post Mike, and some excellent input from others. Definitely, mud ponds are much more complex than a hole etched in the ground and then filled with water and Koi. The maintenance is very high. Mother Nature is constantly trying to reclaim the space first,... and the chemistry of each mud pond must be "touched up" constantly to maintain a suitable environment for Koi - if not, its an eco-system gone wild. At my farm Showa fry ponds are maintained differently than Kohaku ponds, and Sanke ponds are maintained diffenently as well. There is a recipe for success with each.

A "natural" pond is set up by Mother Nature for the masses of living things,... which can be a majority rules type environment,... and the needs of Koi (colored carp) can fall low on the list of priorities in a "natural" environment.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[junglegeorge12]

So exactly what are the differences between your kohaku and showa mud ponds Brady?

[MikeM]

Very interesting comments from folks. ...What a great photo, Brady. That's a sight that has to make a long day worthwhile. It sums up why we get caught up in this koi thing.

Koiczar: I did not go into the movement of calcium and magnesium in the pond because I'm too confused by it to try. In our koi ponds we can limit ourselves to the idea that the hardness/alkalinity elements are consumed in the nitrification processes and performing water changes can restore these. In mud ponds and natural ponds it is much more complex. Algae play a much bigger role. Nitrifiers are at work, but so are other consumptive processes. Calcium is used in making algal cell walls. The death and decomposition cycle releases the calcium, but not immediately. The calcium becomes part of the slow-decay sediment for a while. What happens then has a lot to do with the nature of the soil...whether it is primarily clay, or sandy or humic. These all interact differently. And in any pond there is likely to be a mix of soils blended according to the geologic origin of the area. Humic soils and sediments will be creating a variety of acids lumped together as "humic acid". These acids inhibit bacteria and algae, which are otherwise heavy consumers of calcium. Multiple processes are occurring simultaneously and affecting one another at the same time. I need to read a lot more to become comfortable with any specifics, but even then I think it is risky to think there is an actual understanding of one process because until others are understood, the one first studied is not fully understood.

It becomes more complex when rooted plants are added to pond, simply because the roots actively operate to alter the processes occurring in submerged soils. The root hairs release hydrogen ions (H+) which exchange with several different nutrient ions adsorbed onto the surfaces of clay particles, making those elements available to the be absorbed into the plant, but some escape into the upper layer of aerobic sediment to follow different paths and into the water column to feed algae. The roots of aquatic plants have structures called aerenchyma, which can be thought of as being air channels for conducting oxygen into anaerobic strata of the sediments. There the oxygen diffuses into the sediment surrounding the roots, altering the chemistry of micro areas below the soil surface.

Then another major factor is the structure of the sediments... how permeable it is for interacting with the water. There are several gasses which are created in the sediments... carbon dioxide, ethylene, methane, nitrogen and more. These will build up to create noxious conditions in some ponds, but only to a lesser extent in others. Here, the creatures in the pond play a major role because if they are disturbing the bottom soils, the gasses are released before they reach lethal concentrations. To this extent, koi would seem to be doing something healthy for their own environment when they root in the mud for food. ... You may recall the story Matt McCann told in his article in KoiUSA about having lower than expected productivity in his fry ponds when he first stated. Toshio Sakai advised him to stir up the bottoms. So, Matt and crew have adopted the practice of donning waders and slogging through the fry ponds from one end to the other to disturb the bottom thoroughly. This is done on a regular schedule. The noxious gasses are released without causing harm. Fry production increased considerably. Ponds housing larger koi do not need this attention. The fish do it themselves.

Well, I'm rambling way too long again. I find it fascinating ... and our koi ponds are so much simpler!

[Mobert]

Quote: Originally Posted by junglegeorge12 Anyone know where to buy spirulina or other things to seed into ponds?

Aquatic Eco-Systems has a variety of cultures: http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../5924/cid/1705

I considered adding freshwater rotifers last year to clear up a green water episode. I think I would have liked it better than Algae FX.

Mona

[Sangreaal]

*bumping up---interesting thread for winter reading and contemplation--thanks Mike*

[Fishbreeder]

Interesting discussion on earthen ponds.

I don;t know anybody (producing koi) that doesn't drain, dry, lime, excavate, whatever thier earthen ponds at least once a year.

Like Brady mentions, some varieties do better under differing circumstances. So differing methods are applied, but draining and drying is universal.

The muds must be exposed to the atmosphere and sunlight in order to undrergo mineralization, sterilization, oxidation, etc. If not done for several years the pond can become unproductive, even deadly to the crop.

The sides need to be repaired from constant rooting of the fish and wind erosion. Silts formed from koi wastes and other organic inputs need to be removed every so often or the bottom becomes too soft to harvest.

Differing approaches are also evident with differing soil types, climates, etc. But, many managemetn processes are again, universal. Lime is a constant, whether in the form of "sekkai" (hydrated lime or calcium hydroxide) crushed limestone, crushed eggshells, crushed oyster shells (all calcium carbonate), slaked lime (calcium oxide) or othe type, ponds are constantly limed.

Sometime the entire bottom is removed and replaced with "fresh" soil.

Even ponds that are side by side and utilize the same water source might need to be managed differently as they will have differences in them. As well as the fact that different goals require differring approaches.

Managing a mud pond into productivity is as much an art as a science.

Brett

[Sangreaal]

Great informative post, Brett. Since I've been contemplating putting in mud ponds for the last couple of years, every little shred of info I can squirrel away is helpful as this year may be the year of digging if I buy that tractor I've been enviously eyeing lately. Of course it won't be quite as big as your Texas spread........and the ponds much smaller in comparison. I think 2008 is going to be a glorious year....

[Fishbreeder]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sangreaal I think 2008 is going to be a glorious year....

Now THAT is a statement I will take to the bank!

Brett

[Eugeneg]

There is often a misunderstanding that the mud ponds in which koi are raised are equivalent to natural ponds. They are not. They are more natural than our concrete and liner koi ponds, but not really the same as a natural pond. Both, however, are far more complex than our simple koi pond systems. In the koi pond we eliminate the interaction of water with soil...which means we avoid our koi pond water participating in the full range of chemical processes at work. I've not even touched on the ionization of calcium, magnesium, etc., etc. We should never think that we are copying nature. We are not. We use natural processes in our biofilters to serve a goal, but we are very purposefully avoiding as much of the natural processes as we can. We cannot control those processes so well.[/quote]

Some great articles thank you
What surprised me in my recent visit to Momotaro is that identical mud ponds
did not produce identical results especially in the fry ponds . So there appear to be more variables than we can perceive . I am lucky in that fish grow in my mud pond . I do drain every year so most of the pond mud and clay gets up to a few weeks to dry . I do have some catails and vegitation but the biggest factor I think is the summer aireation useing a compressor and air stones so there is little stagnent water sitting at the bottom .
Regards
Eugene